NNN-BC Tele Technique

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bgregoire

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Re: NNN-BC Tele Technique

Postby bgregoire » Wed Feb 24, 2016 12:24 am

dakartoubab wrote:I don't know nuthin 'bout no NNN but I do know about 3-pin and I have to say....it's all about the boot. If you have shaped skis, you need to be able to put pressure on the cuff and that cuff pressure needs to translate to the ski edge. You do that with a stiff (gulp) boot. Like I said, I haven't skied NNN but "pressuring the bumper" seems to be very analogous to what I am saying about cuff pressure. "Power transfer into the BOF" happens as a consequence of pressuring (hard) on the rear cuff. It's secondary to transferring pressure from the front of the shin to the inside edges of the ski - both, forward and rear skis at the same time.


Interesting stuff. What exactly do you mean by cuff? Driving plastic boots, i'm under the impression lots of the power is transferred from shin to the stiff tongue down to the binding as well. NNNBC boots don't have stiff tongues...
I live for the Telemark arc....The feeeeeeel.....I ski miles to get to a place where there is guaranteed snow to do the deal....TM

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Re: NNN-BC Tele Technique

Postby dakartoubab » Wed Feb 24, 2016 1:33 am

By "cuff", I mean where your shin meets the top to the boot. Looking at pictures of the Svartsen boot, it (kind of) looks like it should be stiff enough in that whole front side to transfer pressure from the top of the tongue down to the toe. Or maybe not. Hence my fantasy of an all-plastic NNN boot.

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Re: NNN-BC Tele Technique

Postby bgregoire » Wed Feb 24, 2016 1:49 am

dakartoubab wrote:By "cuff", I mean where your shin meets the top to the boot. Looking at pictures of the Svartsen boot, it (kind of) looks like it should be stiff enough in that whole front side to transfer pressure from the top of the tongue down to the toe. Or maybe not. Hence my fantasy of an all-plastic NNN boot.


All the NNN BC boots I have tried have reduced restriction in the front (tongue) to aid K&G. Teleing seems easier when the tongue is stiff, or at least when your shin is restricted by the boot from bending forward, which creates pressure and power, the cost is loss in K&G freedom of movement. I've consider modding NNNBC boots by adding a stiffer tongue., such as an intuition molded liner tongue. anyone tried that?
I live for the Telemark arc....The feeeeeeel.....I ski miles to get to a place where there is guaranteed snow to do the deal....TM

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lowangle al

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Re: NNN-BC Tele Technique

Postby lowangle al » Wed Feb 24, 2016 2:04 am

Putting pressure on the cuff of your boot with your shin is a good way to weight the bof on the rear ski. You have to compress the boot down to make it work. You will get good results doing this with even light boots. With light boots it is basically flexing your ankle foward which is something that helps carve your skis. It's the reason dh boots have a foward flex. I think this may also be called driving the knee into the turn. Do this with both skis and you should feel the difference. This is probably one of the first things they teach in ski school but one of the last things you learn. It might be because it puts a lot more burn on the legs, until you get in shape anyway.

When I first heard to pressure the cuff I tried doing it with the lead boot also and I never could get centered. To control the lead ski flex the ankle, and steer with your whole foot, don't put pressure high on the cuff.

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Re: NNN-BC Tele Technique

Postby anemic » Wed Feb 24, 2016 10:31 am

lowangle al wrote:Putting pressure on the cuff of your boot with your shin is a good way to weight the bof on the rear ski. You have to compress the boot down to make it work. You will get good results doing this with even light boots. With light boots it is basically flexing your ankle foward which is something that helps carve your skis. It's the reason dh boots have a foward flex. I think this may also be called driving the knee into the turn. Do this with both skis and you should feel the difference. This is probably one of the first things they teach in ski school but one of the last things you learn. It might be because it puts a lot more burn on the legs, until you get in shape anyway.

When I first heard to pressure the cuff I tried doing it with the lead boot also and I never could get centered. To control the lead ski flex the ankle, and steer with your whole foot, don't put pressure high on the cuff.


Post of the day right there Al. Thanks. This is where I am in my tele development after four days. I need to find a training drill that gets me over the neurological reaction I experience when I try to drop the ankle of my lead leg and finding no resistance my body's reaction is to quickly drop too abruptly on the rear leg to find stability. When I become comfortable on my lead leg, I will be able to find my fore & aft center of balance and I will have my hips centered over both skis. Perhaps I will try to think of the ball of the lead foot as a visual reminder, instead of the heel. I am close to "clicking" everything together.
Call it Nordic Freeride

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Re: NNN-BC Tele Technique

Postby anemic » Wed Feb 24, 2016 10:42 am

LoveJohnny wrote:Just ask Johnny... He'll tell you how easy it is to ski powder on floppy NNN XC shoes...

Image


Johnny that gif is awesome! Great style!
Call it Nordic Freeride

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Re: NNN-BC Tele Technique

Postby Lo-Fi » Wed Feb 24, 2016 10:53 pm

My conclusion, and this may be obvious to most, is that you need full contact of the ball of the rear foot on the ski to pressure it most effectively.

While tele-turning more than half of my weight (around 70/30) is on the back foot, and it needs to have full pressure from the ball of the rear foot, flat on the ski.

If you can’t get your body weight over the rear ball of foot, your foot will necessarily tend towards being up on your toes, and that makes for poor lateral control. As Mike’s original post pointed out, the back ski will feel all wobbly.

Further, it’s easier to feel a wobbly back foot in deeper snow because the variable snow resistance against your shins, boots and skis, easily throws your fore/aft balance in and out of whack.

In this video, it takes a lot of conscious effort to try to keep my weight properly over the back foot and make tele turns, even though the snow is shallow and firm. The boot really resists allowing my back ball of foot to stay nice and flat on the ski:

Image

Full video: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UCK2SYLILnA

I do pressure the back foot, but it takes a lot of very directed exertion to balance over it. The stiff-flexing NNN BC boot sole (in this case, Alpina Alaska) resists the ball-of- foot contact, while the virtually free-pivot NNN BC binding does nothing to help keep my ball of foot down.

Of course, with a 75mm boot, even with a non-active binding, you can lever against the duckbill of the boot to keep your ball of foot down and put pressure on the back ski.
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Re: NNN-BC Tele Technique

Postby lowangle al » Thu Feb 25, 2016 9:32 am

That looks nice and smooth Lo Fi, and you are right about the BOF.

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Re: NNN-BC Tele Technique

Postby GEO » Thu Feb 25, 2016 11:10 am

Never got into this additional NNN BC system, but enjoying nnn skate skis AND making turn on them. Talk about light fishing tackle...!

A buddy did a good job with those back in the day, but complained that the boots never evolved much.

Sure is terms of flex, probably wise to ride 'em "high stance". Looks easy.

PS i recently came into some Rote NNN BCs. Either i need a boot or one of y'all should ask me for 'em. I am kind of leaning towards a boot...... nothing like quiver cycles....

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Re: NNN-BC Tele Technique

Postby lilcliffy » Thu Feb 25, 2016 12:49 pm

Lo-Fi wrote:My conclusion, and this may be obvious to most, is that you need full contact of the ball of the rear foot on the ski to pressure it most effectively.

While tele-turning more than half of my weight (around 70/30) is on the back foot, and it needs to have full pressure from the ball of the rear foot, flat on the ski.

If you can’t get your body weight over the rear ball of foot, your foot will necessarily tend towards being up on your toes, and that makes for poor lateral control. As Mike’s original post pointed out, the back ski will feel all wobbly.

I do pressure the back foot, but it takes a lot of very directed exertion to balance over it. The stiff-flexing NNN BC boot sole (in this case, Alpina Alaska) resists the ball-of- foot contact, while the virtually free-pivot NNN BC binding does nothing to help keep my ball of foot down.

Of course, with a 75mm boot, even with a non-active binding, you can lever against the duckbill of the boot to keep your ball of foot down and put pressure on the back ski.
.


Awesome stuff. And very, very true.

The interesting thing is that the way a boot-binding performs is a complete complex of the combined attributes of that entire boot-binding system.

The Alaska NNNBC vs 75mm is a great example for me.

I bought the Alaska NNNBC first- because I had already switched to NNNBC for XC-focused backcountry XCD skiing.

I had always wondered whether I wouldn't have been happier with the 75mm Alaska; due to the "potential" greater effectiveness of BOF pressuring on the rear ski...

Late last winter, I got a chance to test out the 75mm Alaska with super teles back to back with my Alaska NNNBCs. My close friend has both the same boot size (43) and super teles mounted on Eons/Annums!

I was really surprised by how much more I preferred the NNNBC Alaska than the 75mm on the downhill- greater stability; greater torsional rigidity; stiffer, more powerful flex....

So although 75mm offer inherently greater potential downhill power...I stand by my perspective...When it comes to BC-XC bindings- boot means more than binding.

And here's the thing- when it comes to the telemark on BC-XC tech- the pressure and control of the rear ski is CRITICAL. Lo-Fi it is very interesting that you go as far as to say that you feel that you put as much as 70% of your weight on your REAR ski...very interesting and very cool.

And Lo-Fi- you are correct- a stiff-flexing NNNBC boot, forces you to focus on flexing and weighting that rear ski.

Also- a stiff-flexing NNNBC effectively prevents you from using an elongated stance (unless the conditions are absolutely ideal).

Flex and weight the rear boot!

Maintain a compact stance- keep that rear foot underneath!

Both LJ's and Lo-Fi's videos are excellent examples of this.
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