"The Bleeding Edge" of boot progress...

This is the World Famous TelemarkTalk / TelemarkTips Forum, by far the most dynamic telemark and backcountry skiing discussion board on the world wide web. We have fun here, come on in and be a part of it.
User avatar
lowangle al
XCD Guide
XCD Guide
Posts: 1331
Joined: Sat Jan 11, 2014 4:36 pm

Re: "The Bleeding Edge" of boot progress...

Post by lowangle al » Thu Feb 02, 2017 10:39 am

If they don't make a duckbill version I won't be buyin, buy its good to see some innovation. Maybe tele isn't dead.

User avatar
anrothar
XCD Pinhead
XCD Pinhead
Posts: 159
Joined: Wed Jan 22, 2014 4:52 pm

Re: "The Bleeding Edge" of boot progress...

Post by anrothar » Thu Feb 02, 2017 12:02 pm

The carbon boot in question is surprisingly similar to my cut down version of the boots the Alaska Mountain Wilderness Ski Classic are using. I have one pair with the cuff still attached, one without, but they both have the bellows area completely removed, and replaced with fabric, no tongue and are really light. So, regarding cost, this could be made out of Pebax or similar, have excellent forefoot flex and cost around $350. My pair without the cuff use laces instead of buckles and the Intuition Denali liner, and are lighter than my nnn bc boots, with similar forefoot linear flex, no torsional flex, significantly improved warmth, are completely waterproof inside and out and have much better downhill control.

I think the carbon boot is a step in the right direction regarding future development of this platform into a viable, 'affordable' product.
Last edited by anrothar on Tue Feb 14, 2017 6:11 pm, edited 1 time in total.

MikeK

Re: "The Bleeding Edge" of boot progress...

Post by MikeK » Thu Feb 02, 2017 12:20 pm

anrothar wrote: The carbon boot in question is surprisingly similar to my cut down version of the boots the Alaska Mountain Wilderness Ski Classic are using. I have one pair with the cuff still attached, one without, but they both have the bellows area completely removed, and replaced with fabric, no tongue and are really light. So, regarding cost, this could be made out of Pebax or similar, have excellent forefoot flex and cost around $350. My pair without the cuff use laces instead of buckles and the Intuition Denali liner, and are similar in weight to my nnn bc boots, with similar forefoot linear flex, no torsional flex, significantly improved warmth, are completely waterproof inside and out and have much better downhill control.

I think the carbon boot is a step in the right direction regarding future development of this platform into a viable, 'affordable' product.
I'm not sure I agree with the $350 price point, but I do like what you have done in modifications. If I were you, I'd take that to someone who can mold boots and see if you can get interest.

To me the weak point is the bellows area, but I'm assuming you could design the stiff parts like you did and fill the flexible parts in with a soft bellows like the Excursion to tune the flex for good K+G.

Again, I'm not seeing how that design would be any less than a current production Tele boot other than lack of tongue. Let's say $50 less due to removing that component. T2 retails for $600, you'd have essentially the same components and mold complexity, so $550 retail? Yikes... Still very high for a XCD boot. Maybe $450 end of season on clearance?

Old designs like the T4 and Excursion still kill it on price. But they've been using those molds for how many years?

And any mass production carbon product is going to be double what a molded boot is, just because of labor cost alone.

Still don't see the market... but hey... if they can do it, go for it. I'd feel a lot more confident if ONE other person on this forum than myself had shelled out $300 bananas for a boot like the Svartisen. Yet those things sell like crazy in Norway.

I think this little bubble of XCD is a lot smaller than you think. I think the NTN bubble is a lot bigger and people are willing to spend more money on it for whatever reason. Obviously the Meidjo binding gained traction, but I really wonder, with all the failures it had, how much it really gained. I kinda see the AT wanna-be Tele boots having the same issues as that binding. Right now they seem like a match made in heaven. And I think they'll miss the majority of Tele skiers.

User avatar
anrothar
XCD Pinhead
XCD Pinhead
Posts: 159
Joined: Wed Jan 22, 2014 4:52 pm

Re: "The Bleeding Edge" of boot progress...

Post by anrothar » Thu Feb 02, 2017 12:34 pm

Oh I know it's a tiny bubble, but the supply for that market is shrinking right now, as company's seem to be dropping nordic backcountry from their line up so they can focus on the currently more popular and profitable AT and groomed XC lines.


I with there was a way I could explain the flex with the bellows(area) removed from the boot. The thick pebax sole is really durable and gives a nice, smooth flex. If you're looking to get something with better forward flex than a T4 or excursion, remove the bellows and replace them with fabric(waterproof, attached with flexible cyanoacrylate). My boots have excellent forward flex. They tour great, they hike well.

MikeK

Re: "The Bleeding Edge" of boot progress...

Post by MikeK » Thu Feb 02, 2017 12:37 pm

Oh I believe you. You've opened up the degrees of freedom of the forefoot, which is what I don't like about the bellows. It's only one DOF and a specific point.

I was just saying, for mass production, I think they could replicate the cloth covering with a soft, bellows material and achieve similar results.

User avatar
Lo-Fi
XCD Enthusiast
XCD Enthusiast
Posts: 89
Joined: Fri Feb 19, 2016 4:34 pm

Re: "The Bleeding Edge" of boot progress...

Post by Lo-Fi » Thu Feb 02, 2017 2:17 pm

anrothar wrote:The carbon boot in question is surprisingly similar to my cut down version of the boots the Alaska Mountain Wilderness Ski Classic are using. I have one pair with the cuff still attached, one without, but they both have the bellows area completely removed, and replaced with fabric, no tongue and are really light.
Can you post some pics, gifs, or video?

Thanks!

User avatar
anrothar
XCD Pinhead
XCD Pinhead
Posts: 159
Joined: Wed Jan 22, 2014 4:52 pm

Re: "The Bleeding Edge" of boot progress...

Post by anrothar » Thu Feb 02, 2017 2:41 pm

Photos of both, before gluing in fabric. I've toured pretty extensively with both and prefer the lace up/no cuff ones for XCd.

Forefoot flex on the lace ups. These were Dynafit Mercury had on close out.
DSCF4636.JPG
Closer view.
DSCF4633.JPG
My first attempt at boots of this style, Scarpa Magic. Bought them used locally on Craigslist. Slightly small shells, so I can really only use my Koflach Degre liners in them.
11117512_10205339597866739_1044233772_n.jpg
11076182_10205287748730543_6533443621155936562_n.jpg

User avatar
mainer
XCD Enthusiast
XCD Enthusiast
Posts: 85
Joined: Wed Nov 18, 2015 1:07 pm

Re: "The Bleeding Edge" of boot progress...

Post by mainer » Thu Feb 02, 2017 3:09 pm

anrothar wrote:Photos of both, before gluing in fabric. I've toured pretty extensively with both and prefer the lace up/no cuff ones for XCd.

[Pics]

Nice work! I admire your DIY courage.

How does cutting out the toe area impact skiing? You're using tech AT bindings, right?

User avatar
anrothar
XCD Pinhead
XCD Pinhead
Posts: 159
Joined: Wed Jan 22, 2014 4:52 pm

Re: "The Bleeding Edge" of boot progress...

Post by anrothar » Thu Feb 02, 2017 3:38 pm

mainer wrote:
anrothar wrote:Photos of both, before gluing in fabric. I've toured pretty extensively with both and prefer the lace up/no cuff ones for XCd.

[Pics]

Nice work! I admire your DIY courage.

How does cutting out the toe area impact skiing? You're using tech AT bindings, right?
Just using the toe pieces. I'm not touring for turns, I'm touring for distance. Skiing is my winter version of trail/mountain running and backpacking.

General comparisons(not just the cutout):

Compared to unmodified AT boots in touring mode(heel not engaged):
-Natural stride. The improved range of motion at the ankle and the addition of metatarsal flex makes xc skiing on flats and uphills very comfortable.
-Significant decrease in weight allows me to ski longer, faster in an xc context.
-On mellow terrain, I feel like it increased my DH control. On steeper terrain and at higher speeds, the in tact boot offered more control.

Compared to NNNBC boots(Rossi BCX9 and Alpina 2250)
-Similar striding comfort.
-No noticeable loss of striding efficiency.
-Warmer(not really necessary until camping)
-Completely waterproof. I can wade through creeks and ski through deep overflow and just empty the boot on the other side, wring out my socks and keep going with no worries about cold feet when I stop.
-Significantly more control when turning, skating and traversing. Night and day difference. In this aspect, it's like going from a trail runner to a leather mountaineering boot.
-The improved torsional stability and increase in ankle support leads to less fatigue over the course of a full day of skiing, even on the flats.
-Similar weight. *EDIT* Finally went ahead and weighed both. My white boots pictured above are 169 grams LIGHTER per boot than my Rossignol BCX9 boots!
-NNNBC has an advantage for herringbone and sidestepping up hill. With the NNNBC toe bumper, the tail of the ski returns to level more quickly than with AT toe pieces mounted a finger behind balance point.
-Crampon compatible, though I generally just bring microspikes for the type of adventures I prefer.
Last edited by anrothar on Tue Feb 14, 2017 6:13 pm, edited 2 times in total.

User avatar
anemic
XCD Pinhead
XCD Pinhead
Posts: 226
Joined: Fri Feb 28, 2014 5:39 pm

Re: "The Bleeding Edge" of boot progress...

Post by anemic » Thu Feb 02, 2017 4:23 pm

Again I love what you've done. You are the Hoji of tele! I might pooch some old shells and give'r a go with a hot knife. How do we affix the lace cleats ? I admire simple design.

Do you ski with a gaiter overboot?
Call it Nordic Freeride

Post Reply