NNN-BC Tele Technique

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MikeK

Re: NNN-BC Tele Technique

Post by MikeK » Sun Feb 21, 2016 9:32 am

Honestly I think it's the boot flex. I feel like I can pressure the BOF better with 75mm. Probably some other reasons too.

To me, NNN isn't as easy as 75mm.

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lilcliffy
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Re: NNN-BC Tele Technique

Post by lilcliffy » Sun Feb 21, 2016 10:40 am

Well this thread has been turning and tumbling around in my head for days now…

Been struggling with whether I can articulate anything useful to this.

It’s funny- I don’t think about skiing when I am actually skiing. CIMA- told me last year that I think too much- “JUST FEEL!!!!”

This is true, I do think too much- but not while I am skiing. So trying to analyze and breakdown physics and technique can be challenging. Because when skiing- I really am just FEELING.

And personally I find that videos are interesting, and entertaining- but I have trouble gleaning much from them.

As far as the original video post (have seen it before). My first comment is that those skiers are using a variety of different equipment (including at least one on Rossi Evo- which is one hell of a wimpy ski!) and technique. I notice at least one set of full-on plastic boots as well. Secondly- the terrain and snow they are skiing on is IDEAL. The snow is fresh, soft, and only moderately deep. And the terrain is not steep- steep enough to maintain downhill speed, and momentum- but not so steep that they have to make aggressive, short-radius turns. The terrain and snow is allowing them to keep their skis perpendicular to the contour- both their upper body and their lower body is in the fall line. One can just ride skis in these ideal conditions. Although some of the skiers are using some quick, snappy transitions (which is fun, but unnecessary in that context)- the majority of them are simply striding through open telemarks, with their weight fairly evenly distributed (I notice them leaning back on their rear foot at times to deal with the snow depth). This terrain, snow and technique is relatively easily done on soft flexible boots- typical of NNNBC.

The short-radius turns demonstrated by Johnny in his video are totally different (nice stuff BTW). Johnny is keeping his upper body in the fall line, but using his lower body to stride/jump through those short-radius turns- totally different.

Having spent probably 30 years XCD-skiing on 75mm-3pin with flexible leather BC-XC boots- and then switching to NNNBC- for the same context- several years ago…I cannot reasonable say that my downhill/telemark technique is any different on NNNBC than it is on 3 pin- with an equivalent boot. I can just as easily use the BOF to weight, pressure and edge the rear ski on NNNBC, as I can on 3 pin. I personally don’t find any difference between 3 pin and NNNBC on the downhill. The primary difference I find is between different boots, with different attributes of flex, torsional strength, and above-ankle leverage. (I actually learned to “telemark” on rigid “Telemark” boots-bindings, and developed technique and habits that I find just cannot replicate in flexible BC-XC tech).

I personally feel very unbalanced and “less powerful” if I articulate my rear foot, beyond the BOF. I don’t know why one would try to “ride the bumper/flexor” on your rear toes…I don’t know how you could possible get as much stability and power on your toes, as on the ball-of-foot? And unless you are dropping your rear knee right down, almost onto the ski- I would think that you would need some wild elongate telemark to be on your rear toes…

In short- I keep most of my downhill telemarking- on flexible BC-XC tech (3pin/NNNBC)- to terrain and snow where I can ride the skis and stride through open telemarks, with my upper body and lower body pretty much in the same plane- pointed down the hill, in the fall line.

Consistently making more aggressive, short-radius turns on NNNBC (or 3 pin) is beyond my skill level- unless I am using very short skis, and have ideal snow conditions (and the terrain isn’t extreme). Personally, I find I need more power (i.e. “Telemark” power) to consistently make aggressive short-radius turns on very steep and challenging terrain, and snow.

But there is a limit to where open, long-radius, telemarks can be used. I XCD ski on NNNBC with flexible boots and long skis- I tend to avoid terrain/snow where I cannot stride through open telemarks.
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Re: NNN-BC Tele Technique

Post by lilcliffy » Sun Feb 21, 2016 10:51 am

MikeK wrote:Honestly I think it's the boot flex. I feel like I can pressure the BOF better with 75mm.
This is a very relative issue for me. Boot flex is important. But if the sole-flex is too soft, I find I have significantly less power transfer into my BOF. For example- when I tested my friend's Alaska 75mm against my Alaska BC- not only did I find the NNNBC version more torsionally rigid- I got way more power and stability from the stiffer sole flex of the NNNBC version. Again- IMHO boot means more than binding at this level of power.
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Unashamed to be a "cross-country type" and love skiing down-hill.

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Re: NNN-BC Tele Technique

Post by MikeK » Sun Feb 21, 2016 10:53 am

Interesting.

I had thought I was using the same technique for NNN and 3 pin until I actually skied them back to back.

I'm TRYING to use the same technique (all the my body facing and such should ideally be the same, I'm talking only about rear foot here) but I realized I can get on that rear ski much easier with my pin bindings (or the boots perhaps).

Like I was speculating, I thought perhaps it was just that it's easier to flex the boots I'm using and keep my BOF on the ski. And when I was skiing NNN on harder snows (closed roads, snowmobile trail, etc) it felt perfectly fine to not lift my heel much and keep a high stance. When I had a base and some powder I was going a little lower and being more aggressive but it wasn't much of an issue. If powder I noticed it though. Did yesterday too in the mash. I think it's the stability of the snow and trying really hard to flex that stiff boot sole.

That's why I was wondering if using a more compact, NTN type stance might be more effective. See here:

[video][/video]

I don't think I have any issue with this flaw though, I would feel awkward dropping my foot back! I try to scissor as much as I can but my front foot is leading like a stride.

Anyway, what I want to focus on is his stance when he's on the flat and flexing. He's driving to a low position, boot is up on it's tip i.e. he doesn't have BOF on the ski but he's still weighting the ski effectively.

It's harder to make that happen on pins just due to the mechanics of how they flex (you can get off the BOF though) but on NNN is much more like the NTN in where the pivot is.

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Re: NNN-BC Tele Technique

Post by lilcliffy » Sun Feb 21, 2016 10:55 am

MikeK wrote: Then I skied my 75mm once and I was having no issue at all, I was flexing all in the boot because that's all you can do. Then I went back to the NNN for a couple tries and I was getting those back foot wobbles.
IMHO, this has more to do with relative sole-flex stiffness- as opposed to the binding. Your NNNBC boots have a significantly stiffer sole-flex than your 3 pins.

With a stiffer sole-flex you get more mechanical advantage- but it does require you to force that rear boot sole to flex.
Cross-country AND down-hill skiing in the backcountry.
Unashamed to be a "cross-country type" and love skiing down-hill.

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Re: NNN-BC Tele Technique

Post by lilcliffy » Sun Feb 21, 2016 11:20 am

MikeK wrote: That's why I was wondering if using a more compact, NTN type stance might be more effective.
Well- in general I try to keep my telemark stance as compact as possible- regardless of whether I am able to use an upright stance, or need a "deep" telemark for increased power and stability.
Anyway, what I want to focus on is his stance when he's on the flat and flexing. He's driving to a low position, boot is up on it's tip i.e. he doesn't have BOF on the ski but he's still weighting the ski effectively.

It's harder to make that happen on pins just due to the mechanics of how they flex (you can get off the BOF though) but on NNN is much more like the NTN in where the pivot is.
Yeah NNNBC is more like NTN in terms of the pivot point- but there is at least one huge fundamental difference. NTN offers incredible binding resistance. That flexed NTN boot-binding is driving one hell of a lot of power into the ski compared to NNNBC.

Without that "telemark" binding power- I don't see how you can effectively transfer weight and power into the rear ski without using the BOF. And- I don't personally have difficulty using the BOF to pressure the rear ski on NNNBC...

On NNNBC it would be very difficult to use the BOF in an elongated stance- because the pivot point will pull the rear boot up onto your toes. So- yes I believe a compact stance is critical in a telemark on NNNBC.
Cross-country AND down-hill skiing in the backcountry.
Unashamed to be a "cross-country type" and love skiing down-hill.

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Re: NNN-BC Tele Technique

Post by lilcliffy » Sun Feb 21, 2016 11:28 am

LoveJohnny wrote:Funny that you mention it, because I will start experimenting skiing without the bumper... Its way too stiff... "Activeness" comes way too early for k&g...
Not following you here man...I have K&G skied on NNNBC without the flexor (by accident- the flexor got knocked out in transport). It was horrible. Without that flexor there is no binding resistance what so ever (i.e. it becomes a free-pivot binding). You are forced to try and kick through the BOF, thus limiting your stride. I personally hated it.
But your question doesn't make much sense to me... If you can't flex your boot to apply pressure on BOF vertically, you just cannot ski NNN or pins-without-cables at all...[
EXACTLY!!!!!!
EDIT:
See the guy at 0:50... He is riding the bumper... No pressure on BOF... He is just waiting for the bumper to arrive and ride on it...
Again- another good example. "Riding the bumper" like that means that the skier likely has almost all their weight on the leading ski.

No NNNBC flexor- no matter how dense it is- is going to produce enough resistance to effectively weight/pressure the rear ski. You gotta use the BOF. It may "pivot" like NTN- but NTN it ain't.
Cross-country AND down-hill skiing in the backcountry.
Unashamed to be a "cross-country type" and love skiing down-hill.

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lilcliffy
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Re: NNN-BC Tele Technique

Post by lilcliffy » Sun Feb 21, 2016 2:29 pm

And while I'm thinking of it....the NNNBC "tippie-toes" issue.

Mike- I think you are correct that a 75mm binding lends itself to BOF power transfer- this is especially true with a plastic boot that has a bellows, and restricts the full extension of your foot (this is related to our conversation about plantar fasciitis and XC skiing in plastic Tele boots).

But, I don't find that I have "trouble" transferring power through my BOF on NNNBC. However, I do have to watch that I do not over extend my telemark...

I think that you are on the right track by thinking it has a lot to do with stance. On NNNBC, an elongated stance will most definitely put your rear foot up on your toes. On NNNBC- In order to properly flex the boot and transfer power through the BOF, you must have a compact telemark stance. Just look at Johnny's form in his video above- very compact- and he is "perfectly" balanced on both skis.
Cross-country AND down-hill skiing in the backcountry.
Unashamed to be a "cross-country type" and love skiing down-hill.

MikeK

Re: NNN-BC Tele Technique

Post by MikeK » Sun Feb 21, 2016 4:05 pm

You know when I'm on harder pack stuff it's amazing how easy I can feel it with NNN. I can literally hold my 'carve' or skid the rear ski by how much pressure I put back there.

And when I ski down powdery stuff with pins, I don't even thin about it. I just put weight on that rear skis and I'm sailing around (like an eagle :) ).

It's something subtle I'm sure... I'll get.

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Re: NNN-BC Tele Technique

Post by dakartoubab » Tue Feb 23, 2016 11:32 pm

I don't know nuthin 'bout no NNN but I do know about 3-pin and I have to say....it's all about the boot. If you have shaped skis, you need to be able to put pressure on the cuff and that cuff pressure needs to translate to the ski edge. You do that with a stiff (gulp) boot. Like I said, I haven't skied NNN but "pressuring the bumper" seems to be very analogous to what I am saying about cuff pressure. "Power transfer into the BOF" happens as a consequence of pressuring (hard) on the rear cuff. It's secondary to transferring pressure from the front of the shin to the inside edges of the ski - both, forward and rear skis at the same time.

japanese guy (the famous Telehiro):


canadian guy:


Japanese guy is using a 20th century technique. Canadian guy, 21st century.
Telehiro looks smooth but look at how much body rotation he's putting into his turns. He's not driving FORWARD into his inside edges and, as such, he's not making the side cut of the ski work for him. It's more work for him and he's not as efficient.

NTN will teach you this but, once you learn it, it translates just as well to 75 mm. Using T1 boots and a 3-pin toepiece-only binding (see my previous post on this string), I'm skiing at all the challenging terrain at my resort - Mt. Hood Meadows - with 98% of the confidence that I do with my TX-Comp/NTN-Freeride setup. It's frickin' crazy!
After having had this realization, I keep wishing/praying that they would come up with a T4-like, all plastic NNN boot. Put that on some fatt-ish waxless skis and you would have a pretty darn useful backcountry set-up.

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