NNN-BC Tele Technique

[MikeK]

Hey Lo-Fi. Welcome to TTalk and thanks for the excellent response.

I'd seen your video before, probably over 3 years ago and thought I'd never be able to ski like you are in that vid, especially with NNN. I'll say I'm still not as smooth as your upper body is, but I got close, and am getting closer. Believe it or not YOU were one of my first inspirations!

On harder snow like your video is where I have the best luck with NNN, I can really pressure that rear boot and keep that high Tele stance. I find if I let off the rear ski just skids and lets me know I'm too far forward.

I cannot figure what I am doing different in deep snow, but I think I may be too aggressive with my front foot. I tend to charge into that type of snow more because it is slower and I want to get speed to turn. I probably do it with pins too but it must be easier to compensate for.

I also read what you said about boot fit, and both my boots fit my foot really tight, so I may just be having trouble actually flexing them while keeping the BOF on the ski.

[Lo-Fi]

Thanks for your welcome Mike.

Yeah, I went through a bit of an existential crisis a couple of years ago in regards to NNN BC. I've always hoped that I could find some NNN BC gear that would help me turn as well as 75mm gear. I'm not sure I've found it yet. It's good to hear other peoples' experiences.

[MikeK]

We've had a lot of debate about this, and I haven't went the full plastic shell tele-boot route yet, but it always seems easier to turn with pins, even with leather boots. JMO. I think there is perhaps some physics to back it up, just as there is some to back up that NNN is better for K+G.

I just haven't found it detrimental enough that I want to put pins back on my mid-width or narrower skis (<65mm waist). I can ski them pretty well in most situations and I think better technique can fix any short comings. I know LoveJohnny is skiing Guide/Annums in that gif vid, and has switched pretty much all his XCD skis to NNN. So no reason it can't be done.

[dakartoubab]

I thought I'd give this NNN-BC gear a try at the resort today....
Gear (rented): Fisher S-bound 78 skis, Rossi BC-X10 boots
Conditions: wide, intermediate runs w/ 1/4 inch of corn.... perfect conditions.
Impressions:
Whew, talk about tippy-toe! I was eventually able to link some respectable tele turns but it was an interesting learning curve. I was really missing some kind of resistance to push against on the boot uppers. The soles were plenty stiff - bending and twisting wise - but, man, it's just cloth above the soles. By necessity, I ended up having to do more weighing and unweighing than I'm use to to initiate the turns. I could drive my pelvis and knees forward into the turn somewhat, enough to intrigue me with the possibilities. I'm thinking that, with beefier boots and with a wider, more shaped ski, I could do some glacier skiing w/ NNN this summer (groomed; Timberline).
Am I right in assuming that the BC-X10 boots just aren't the ticket for xcD? Based on MikeK's video post comparing different boots, it looks like Svartisens are the way to go but will they give me enough of that resistance to pushing the shin forward through the boot that I'm looking for?

[bgregoire]

IMO, if your looking for resistance in the tongue, you will have to look elsewhere. All the newer systems boots are optimized for k and g. even if they have plenty of ankle support and a "stiff" sole, there ain't no resistance for the shin to push into (and even if they had a little, which the svartisen might given its 2 buckles, its tongue is soft. Plus, even if the tongue was stiff, that force you are used to transferring from your shin will not go to the ski IMO as the connection between boot and ski is essentially a free pivot) . Even the new non-norwegian welted boots dont have stiffened or thick tongues. Teleing under these conditions, as you have discovered, requires a different technique.

[Johnny]

it looks like Svartisens are the way to go but will they give me enough of that resistance to pushing the shin forward through the boot that I'm looking for?

That point is of the most importance.

That's THE main difference between "XCD" and "Telemark". But most people will never get it, thinking it has something to do with lifts and Excursions... I've said it a million times but just for fun, I'll say it again a different way...

Simply put:

- If you rely on your shins or your boot's cuffs, buckles or tongues, you are doing telemark.
- If you rely on your ankles and feet, you are doing XCD.

On XC shoes, there is no cuffs, no buckles and the shins are free. So you have to use a totally different technique to control your skis and turn. That's the only difference between XCDing and Telemark skiing. That's why I keep saying its two different sports, with different techniques, using different parts of your body to turn.

Dakartoubab, XCDing is the most stupid thing in the world. It's the hardest thing. But with a little bit of practice, you'll be hooked. Nothing is more fun once you learn how to do it...! But it will make you mad until it kicks in. Dont look for more support, that'd be like using crutches. You just need to get rid of your tele habits. It's all in the feet, toes and ankles...

Have fun...! And keep us posted about your future NNN experiences!

[dakartoubab]

Thank you for the encouragement, LoveJohnny. You're awesome! I love your enthusiasm. Like I said in my post, I'm intrigued with the possibilities of NNN. Enough that I want to go back up there and work on what you said - the ankles, feet, and toes. Is the gear that I used a good "starter kit"? What upgrade would you do - boots and/or skis - if any?

[lowangle al]

Simply put:

- If you rely on your shins or your boot's cuffs, buckles or tongues, you are doing telemark.
- If you rely on your ankles and feet, you are doing XCD.

On XC shoes, there is no cuffs, no buckles and the shins are free. So you have to use a totally different technique to control your skis and turn. That's the only difference between XCDing and Telemark skiing. That's why I keep saying its two different sports, with different techniques, using different parts of your body to turn.


Great observation LJ, in plastic boots you presure the boot to engage your edges. On soft boots it all feet and ankles. When I go back to my xcd stuff I really feel the strength being used in my feet. To the point that they are the first body part to become fatigued.

[MikeK]

IMHO, the 78 is a good touring/mild turning ski. It turns, but I wouldn't call it turny. It tours great. It climbs great. Those are it's strongest attributes. IMO it's a really go do all kind of XCD ski.

If I was just going to make turns, I'd use a different ski. If you are wanting to tour around a lot then ride some wild turns it's a fun friggin' ski.

IMO the 98 is a better choice if you are turn focused. It's not much heavier, climbs so good, and tours reasonably well for what it is. It's best aspect is how quickly it can turn and still be easy to control with soft boots. The Epoch would be int he same class, as the BC90, but the Epoch doesn't have near the climbing ability and I think the flared tail on the 98 makes it a bit turnier, maybe too much for some.

For DH focused metal edged XC skiing or as we call, xcD, that could be my only ski. Another guy on this forum uses it as his quiver of one and I don't doubt it. If you never have to ski on groomed, packed or hard snow, it does great!

I think any of the higher end modern leather boots could handle this ski. I thought it was a little shaky with my 75mm Alaska, but I could handle it. That would be my lower limit on boot stiffness, but with practice, it would work. Bindings, either would work.

You could get more dh performance from wider skis than that, but I think you start to lose what you can effectively control with the boots. The Svartisen NNN could probably handle a pretty wide ski actually... but I don't much see the point. It's a big spectrum though... some people seem to think you need plastic boots to control skinny skis, others thing you can ski fatter boards with less. Depends on what you are willing to compromise.

[MikeK]

it looks like Svartisens are the way to go but will they give me enough of that resistance to pushing the shin forward through the boot that I'm looking for?

That point is of the most importance.

That's THE main difference between "XCD" and "Telemark". But most people will never get it, thinking it has something to do with lifts and Excursions... I've said it a million times but just for fun, I'll say it again a different way...

Simply put:

- If you rely on your shins or your boot's cuffs, buckles or tongues, you are doing telemark.
- If you rely on your ankles and feet, you are doing XCD.

On XC shoes, there is no cuffs, no buckles and the shins are free. So you have to use a totally different technique to control your skis and turn. That's the only difference between XCDing and Telemark skiing. That's why I keep saying its two different sports, with different techniques, using different parts of your body to turn.

Dakartoubab, XCDing is the most stupid thing in the world. It's the hardest thing. But with a little bit of practice, you'll be hooked. Nothing is more fun once you learn how to do it...! But it will make you mad until it kicks in. Dont look for more support, that'd be like using crutches. You just need to get rid of your tele habits. It's all in the feet, toes and ankles...

Have fun...! And keep us posted about your future NNN experiences!

The Svartisen, despite it's 'cuff' and 'buckles' falls into #2.

The ankle is 'less free' but it's still free. It's not like a plastic boot. Forward flex, forget it. It's soft as a boiled noodle.