Kickin' It Old School

[wooley12]

Well this is nice. WWII commando and ski history is my hobby. I started skiing in the '50s, when dad bought boots and skis for me and my brother. The gear and techniques were the same as in those WWII training vids. I needed to be skilled in those turns for the Boy Scout merit badge. After his Ranger battalion got wiped out, Dad ended up in one of the 3 US WWII commando units with ski training, the First Special Service Force. AKA "The Black Devils". They trained at Camp Hale in Colorado with the 99th Infantry(Separate) made up of a battalion of American Norwegians and third was the 10th Mtn. Div. "The College Boys". As it turned out, none of them ever used skis in a combat zone. But every one of them could ski or march 12 miles of up and down with an 80 lb pack in under 3 hours. In Army boots. Fit and tough as nails when the deployed.

With the Arctic coming into play globally, there has been a lot of money given to the Maines and the 10th Mtn Div for updating their gear. Best battle field use for skis is moving men and gear quickly over flat frozen ground.

These days my old legs are toast but my old school skilz are strong enough to get me down double blacks.

So here's what you do before you learn how to turn.

[lowangle al]

This is from the winter of 91/92. Karhu XCD-GT, 3pin bindings, Merril Ultra boots and a Lowe contour IV pack. Turnagain Pass, Ak.

[Chisana]

This is from the winter of 91/92. Karhu XCD-GT, 3pin bindings, Merril Ultra boots and a Lowe contour IV pack. Turnagain Pass, Ak. 203AD2E4-195F-4547-8E1B-A83858F96F1E.jpeg

And---- Exel Arctic poles!!! (I think)

[lowangle al]

This is from the winter of 91/92. Karhu XCD-GT, 3pin bindings, Merril Ultra boots and a Lowe contour IV pack. Turnagain Pass, Ak. 203AD2E4-195F-4547-8E1B-A83858F96F1E.jpeg

And---- Exel Arctic poles!!! (I think)

Thanks, I forgot to mention those. They were the double wrapped fiberglass. I skied them for about 15 years and never broke one. I had to replace grips and baskets though. I switched to adjustable poles in the early 2000s and never looked back.

[TallGrass]

full size image link


full size image link

[TallGrass]

Alright sleuths, here are some old school ski boots as displayed in a rental shop in Durango, Colorado. Can you ID the make, model, and year?

Well this is nice. WWII commando and ski history is my hobby. ... But every one of them could ski or march 12 miles of up and down with an 80 lb pack in under 3 hours. In Army boots. Fit and tough as nails when the deployed. With the Arctic coming into play globally, there has been a lot of money given to the Maines and the 10th Mtn Div for updating their gear. Best battle field use for skis is moving men and gear quickly over flat frozen ground.

Sure about the 12mi/3hr (4mph) w 80# pack? That's quite a fast hiking pace, and I say that as I timed myself with a 30-40# multi-day pack with trad climbing gear and managed that this summer, also paced via GPS and 3.5-4 is about the fastest I can "(speed)walk", but much faster and I'd have to start a "jog" which presents different issues with pack weight distribution. I've hand-packed 75# bundles of comp shingles up a three-story ladder before, done the Incline (Pikes Peak, Barr Trail) with a 45# in winter (groceries to Barr Camp), and have run at least 10mph (6min/mi) in XC.
Ski 4mph? Sure.
March 4mph w 80# uphills? Um...

Anyhow, you might find this kit interesting:

Vintage 1980 NOS US Military All Terain Ski Binding Poles Field Repair Kit
Item description from the seller
Vintage, new old stock, Military All Terrain Ski Repair Kit. NSN: 8465-01-016-4207. Thank you for looking.
https://www.ebay.com/itm/334402721488

[wooley12]

Well this is nice. WWII commando and ski history is my hobby. ... But every one of them could ski or march 12 miles of up and down with an 80 lb pack in under 3 hours. In Army boots. Fit and tough as nails when the deployed. With the Arctic coming into play globally, there has been a lot of money given to the Maines and the 10th Mtn Div for updating their gear. Best battle field use for skis is moving men and gear quickly over flat frozen ground.

Sure about the 12mi/3hr (4mph) w 80# pack? That's quite a fast hiking pace, and I say that as I timed myself with a 30-40# multi-day pack with trad climbing gear and managed that this summer, also paced via GPS and 3.5-4 is about the fastest I can "(speed)walk", but much faster and I'd have to start a "jog" which presents different issues with pack weight distribution. I've hand-packed 75# bundles of comp shingles up a three-story ladder before, done the Incline (Pikes Peak, Barr Trail) with a 45# in winter (groceries to Barr Camp), and have run at least 10mph (6min/mi) in XC.
Ski 4mph? Sure.
March 4mph w 80# uphills? Um...

Well, would you believe 50# pack?
https://www.menshealth.com/fitness/a309 ... h-youtube/

I got one of those repair kits as a thankyou gift when I was Pres of a XC club 25 years ago. Still have the spool of bailing wire in my tool box.

[TallGrass]

Well, would you believe 50# pack?
https://www.menshealth.com/fitness/a309 ... h-youtube/

I got one of those repair kits as a thankyou gift when I was Pres of a XC club 25 years ago. Still have the spool of bailing wire in my tool box.

Flat NYC pavement at sea level versus going up/down mountains from a 10,000' elevation start (lower air pressure... 2/3rds the available O2?) on rolling trails is a significant difference, as is 50 vs 80#. Like speedwalking (best can sustain to 9mph or so... on a flat track with no pack), you have to keep one foot in contact at all times or else the "hop" becomes a jog or run (foot contact alternates 1-2-1-2-... walking vs 1-0-1-0- running), and that hop means all the pack weight cycling from loading your shoulders and waistbelt and unloading it with an impulse greater than the packweight (ala, dropping a 80# pack on a scale will momentarily swing the needle well past 80#).

I've no doubt there were those in the 10th that could, but even a cherry picked group of 1940s fit recruits is going to thin considerably and take time to acclimate (BPG shift in blood for one...) much less to reach that level of fitness. Doing it with skis could make it more efficient/faster on the uphill, and of course down. There are SAR members hauling 80# or so packs, but they come in (slower) well after a "hasty team" going in light with the bare minimum and radios. I'm no Ueli Steck, yet have done 12+hr for days in a row with a multi-day pack above 10-13k to be aware of the challenges... and the 'sore-dom' that goes with it.

[randoskier]

My hunch, based on what I've seen of the 10th Mtn, is they "went with what they had, not what they wanted," at least for training. In that clip one soldier talks about having to move his feet all night to keep them from freezing. IIRC, cold-weather gear started coming into its own during the Korean War for the U.S., and soldiers just had to "make do" and or "improvise" with what they had available. If I pulled up 1941 kit, I'd expect to see WWI/II-esque boot gaiters supplementing ski "boots".

You hunch is right, you just need to move it forward to at least the 70s (15 years after Korea).

My dad was in the Canadian Army. His unit was assigned to the NATO rapid reaction force, which deployed to N. Norway every winter for training.

The Canadians were instructors for other NATO forces up there. Why? Because they had more cold weather experience than even the Scandinavian countries at the time (it gets cold up there but nothing like the Canadian Arctic because the Gulf Stream actually adds warmth (and BIG snow) to Scandinavia. The Gulf Stream is pushed away from Canada by the Labrador Current, which flows out of the polar region. The Gulf Stream eventually turns into the North Atlantic current, but still retains a lot of heat).



Any doubts? Look at the mean minimum of Iqaluit in February (-44C) versus Tromso (-5C), even though Tromso is 300 miles closer to the North Pole. Both coastal cities. One under the influence of the Labrador Current, the other the Gulf Stream.

My dad would often say that the US had the best logistics, lift, and weapons… but atrocious cold weather gear. The American soldiers would suffer up there because of it. The Danes (whose possessions include Greenland) and Norwegians had no issues with gear or fieldcraft. It was their backyard. Germans, French and Italians… varied.

I’m pretty sure all of that changed in the 80s and 90s when the US really embraced global expeditionary warfare. There are just too many smart folks and enough money in the US military to hammer that nail flat. IDK this for certain, as my dad retired in about 1980 but it’s a responsible assumption based on a career in the military myself.

I spent 34+ years in the navy, so didn’t deploy in that capacity with the US military.

Wow that is a long time in the Navy, reserve or active?

I was in USAF for six years (four active) reaching the exalted rank of Sgt.. I was at Pease AFB in NH. Went TDY once to Goose Bay, Labrador which was a USAF forward deployment base during alert exercises. Pease was a northern tier SAC base with eight FB-111s on nuclear alert, each one had six nuclear warheads loaded on SRAMs, four on the wings and two in the belly (during a full alert exercise many times that amount of up-loaded aircraft). I was in USAF Security Forces and only worked at night (3 nights 15:00 to 23:00 then 3 nights 00:00 to 08:00, plus time to draw and turn in our weapons at the armory, then 3 days off except for alert exercises which were 12 on 12 off, no days off).We had no skis or snow shoes as we were mostly on the flightline in the alert area or out in the woods inside the WSA compound where the nukes were stored). The base is situated between the bay and the ocean and windy so winter nights out on the obviously treeless flightline was pretty chilly. We had snorkel parkas and matching pants, bunny boots for extreme cold nights and canvas mukluks for normal winter weather and all that other crap. We had small fiberglass gate shacks the size of a porta pot but you could only go in them for 15 minutes per hour, strictly enforced. I was happy when my orders for Guam arrived!

I was surprised to hear that Canada provided instructors in any NATO exercise in Norway as Norway tends to run that exercise and conduct the winter skills training

The Canadian arctic is indeed colder than the Norwegian arctic (excepting Svalbard, Norway, 77.87°N, which I would assume is colder than any inhabited place in Canada). However almost every Norwegian skis from a very young age hence their saying- "We were born with skis on our feet" (I always counter- Us Yanks were born with guns in our hands).

Norway is not Florida. Tromso is warm because it is on the water- the interior of Troms is cold, the Lyngen Alps in Troms is one of toughest ranges in the world. The pics attached is my wife cooking our breakfast in the balmy Narvik Mountains about 300km south of Tromso, and cabin in the same range that took awhile to open- and that is about 150 km north of the arctic circle. Norway is also very windy so one must not exclude the Wind Chill factor : )

Norwegians do not need ski lessons or winter warfare lessons. Norway only has 5 million people vs Canada's 30 million but if one looks at result boards of Nordic skiing international competitions there are not many Canucks sharing the podium with that huge gang of Norwegian medalists. The same is true of Polar Exploration, Norway is miles ahead of any other country in Polar firsts (and a Norwegian Mile is 10km). Almost every Norwegian man that I know (and a large number of their women) have served in the army, and the nation has a high level of fitness.

Scandinavian troops are better equipped to fight in the arctic environment than any other nations- Norway and Finland are the top (Ask the Russians about the latter). The best troops for the Alpine Environment are France (Alpin Chasseurs), Italian (Alpini), German (Berg Jaeger) and the Swiss Army (who really do have those knives- I asked one- he replied "But sadly without a cork-screw"). The Austrian Army is a joke (Austria hides behind NATO), Iceland does not have an Army, Air Force or Navy. One of the most interesting units is Danish Special Forces- the remote Sirius Patrol two man dog sled team that does 2 years, and patrols a few thousand km of Greenland's coast. During the 2 years no leave is permitted.

The British Marines have trained in Norway forever (the British ww2 joint commando operations with Norwegians are legendary) and they have a lot of good skiers in both the Arctic and Alpine environments.

In my opinion the US has the wrong approach to Arctic warfare and is wasting a lot of time and resources by giving rudimentary two week or one month long training to non-specific units only to see those soldiers transfer to some other unit or separate from the service. It seems that having dedicated Arctic/Ski/Mountain units would be a much better use of resources (as the specialized 10th Mountain Div. was set up in ww2) and massively increase mountain capability and lethality. Their equipment seems to be improving, especially on the USMC front- they have real telemark bindings now, hard cabled! But they keep changing their equipment, they should standardize it. Their new pulks are nice, made on the Norwegian island of Senja.

I don't know much about the Canadian Army I know they have 3 companies in the 3rd that are listed as ski troops and they have a special ops ski de randonee course for alpine terrain.

Below early days in Canadian military skiing:

https://digitalarchive.tpl.ca/objects/3 ... n-the-type

USAF teaching Canucks to land C-130s with skis on the landing gear.

https://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/north/ho ... -1.3530258

[Musk Ox]

One of the most interesting units is Danish Special Forces- the remote Sirius Patrol two man dog sled team that does 2 years, and patrols a few thousand km of Greenland's coast. During the 2 years no leave is permitted.

We overnighted on a Danish military base in southern Greenland a few years ago. It was one of the most hospitable, welcoming places you can imagine. There's a tradition of gourmet cooking in the Danish military abroad. We ate snow crab and roast musk ox and gourmet versions of Danish comfort food. They're so amazingly isolated and make the best of it in a hilariously social and Scandinavian way.