The NNN/BC Truth Thread

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lilcliffy
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Re: The NNN/BC Truth Thread

Post by lilcliffy » Fri Dec 18, 2015 9:16 pm

MikeK-

I understand everything you are saying, but I'm afraid I still don't agree.

The horizontal lever is the boot sole- not the binding plate- nor the bale- whether you are pushing down- or pulling up.

The boot sole is rigid. It does not bend over the edge of the binding plate when you push down on a plate that is narrower than the boot sole.

Yes- the binding attachment is narrower on NNNBC, than the bale on 75 mm. But- the horizontal lever of the boot sole is just as wide.

Whether there is force pushing down and/or pulling up- the binding plate engages with the boot sole- and you have the full horizontal lever of the boot sole- just like 3-pin.

If what you are saying is true then you should be able to increase mechanical advantage by increasing the width of the binding plate- or the bale/duckbill- out beyond the width of the boot. In order to apply leverage- you must be able to apply force at the end of the lever. There is no way that you can apply horizontal leverage out beyond the width of the boot.

The only way to increase leverage beyond the width of the boot is in the vertical plane.
Cross-country AND down-hill skiing in the backcountry.
Unashamed to be a "cross-country type" and love skiing down-hill.

MikeK

Re: The NNN/BC Truth Thread

Post by MikeK » Fri Dec 18, 2015 9:25 pm

Yup the boot is your limit. The width of your foot is the limit (I think I said that in one of the other posts), but you still apply the force from the boot through the plate and bails/bars. And the wider it is, the more torque you create, with the stipulation that it can't be greater than the boot.

That's why wide skis need tall stiff boots. You can't get enough leverage from BOF only, even if the binding rigidly attaches your boot to the binding.

Cuffs help on xc skis too. They help drive the force from your knee to roll the ski. But you are still limited by boot and binding stiffness down below. At some point if the cuff is stiff and the bottom of the boot is soft and the binding weak, you are just twisting the binding and not transmitting that motion to the ski.

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Teleman
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Re: The NNN/BC Truth Thread

Post by Teleman » Sat Dec 19, 2015 9:17 am

Mike saw on another thread you would like to ski North Idaho and Montana....Odin had Thought and Memory sitting on his shoulders.....They flew off in the early mornings and told Odin what was what.....On your journeys you hear them....heard them yesterday and cackled with them...Up in the Highlands we commune....If you get out there Raven will guide you....Believe me it will be a great trip.......As far as the rest....NNN, free pivot does not work in the deep snow for breaking trails up into the nowhere....Know for a fact they ice up baaaaad....Especially when getting wet in the cold....Again we all have tried them and they were found wanting....Leathers continue but as LC said they are going fast....Get them while you can (welted)....But to argue that as a reason for nnn is flawed like saying pins are history because of NTN....All the Boys have numerous pins just in case....But they don't break....We trash skis but bindings continue....My analysis is based on feel....NOT MATH....And connie I probably skied on all the stuff you ski on now about 30 years ago....Sucked then sucks now....Again based on FEEL....TM

MikeK

Re: The NNN/BC Truth Thread

Post by MikeK » Sat Dec 19, 2015 10:20 am

I haven't seen one bit of math on this thread. I could give you some if you like though ;) I just don't want to be an arrogant prick...

I really don't get why NNN doesn't work in deep snow. Works for me. No ice either on the new NNN-BC bindings that I can report. The regular NNN autos seem to be an issue. When I go xc skiing I usually stop and help a few people with their bindings. But if you understand how the binding works, it's not hard to fix. Actually most of the issues I've seen are the boot. They often get a big chunk of ice in the notch up front under the bar. Just knock that out with a stick and off you go. Again, knowing the mechanism helps a lot.

But whatever - no one is trying to covert anyone to any one type of binding. Use what you like. I like to understand the real functions and limitations so I can decide what ski to use with what for what I'm going to do. But really for BC Nordic, based on what's available out there, there are really only two choices. 3 pin (w/ or w/o cable) and NNN-BC (regular or magnum). SNS is maybe still floating around but due to the limited boot options, it's not a great choice. Crispi and Andrew are still keeping the Norwegian welt alive. And the Crispi is still easy to get in the US.

The options are just different than you guys had 20 years ago. I understand you may like certain boots and bindings, but for people buying new gear or just starting this great sport, they have to choose from what's available or scour for old beat equipment. Used is cool, but I have to say I like all my new equipment better than the used stuff I've bought. A lot of people don't sell equipment they really like, and the market is small, so you're unlikely to get really sweet gear for a song.

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Re: The NNN/BC Truth Thread

Post by Teleman » Sat Dec 19, 2015 10:45 am

OK, ok freakin engineers.. Go back to being engineers....Ron is arguing the same stuff....Have to say I get a kick turn out of it.....All skiing is individual so if you love nnn have at it.....We will continue with pins....As I said I started Telekid out on nnn and some kinda floppy leathers. (cheap) He graduated to pins kind of a natural progression.....yes we do get our stuff from here and there but paying full new prices, not generally....(exception, Boots)....But if we get a used leather boot in our size, we feel like it's Christmas.....TM

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Re: The NNN/BC Truth Thread

Post by MikeK » Sat Dec 19, 2015 10:58 am

Teleman - we ain't paying full prices either. I've never paid much over $200 for a pair of xcd skis. Maybe $210 at most, most I've got under 200.

Boots not so much, some were expensive, some I got really good deals on, but only after I knew what I was after.

Shit, I don't know if he wants me to say it but Johnny got a brand new pair of S98s with the skins for $150! Even you wouldn't pass that up Teleman!

Lilcliffy and I weren't arguing, at least I wasn't arguing with him - I was however debating an idea and trying to convey my thoughts, and him to me. If we were arguing we'd be calling each other names and getting all snarky, like every other goddamn ski forum.

A little snark is funny, but when you are having a civilized discussion and trying to teach and learn, it has to be set aside or else you can't progress.

And Teleman, you said the #1 issue right there with Telekids NNN gear! Floppy boots! Perhaps if he had tried it with some of the really nice, rigid sole boots you can get now, it might feel a little better. I HATED NNN when I tried it with floppy, cheap boots. Felt awful even on easy terrain.

And I would never say that NNN-BC provides more leverage than 75mm. It's simply not the case from a mechanical standpoint. I said it 50 pages back when Ron and CIMA were arguing. But it doesn't mean that it isn't a good option for skinny skis that don't need a lot a leverage where you want to have a nice stride and some dh power. If you are skiing the fat XCD boards, you might want to get pins... but really if you have a solid boot and solid technique, you can get away with less.

As far as durability, I don't know. Shit breaks sometimes but NNN-BC has been used on polar expeditions as has regular 3 pins. Both seem to be acceptable. I'm not doing that, so if I break a binding it's not a matter of life or death, it's just a minor inconvenience and perhaps a miserable slog back to my car if I can't fix it with zip ties and duct tape.

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Re: The NNN/BC Truth Thread

Post by connyro » Sat Dec 19, 2015 11:00 am

Teleman wrote:And connie I probably skied on all the stuff you ski on now about 30 years ago....Sucked then sucks now....
Hahahaha. I get a kick out of you, strange, stubborn, old dude. 30 years ago. NOTHING has changed since 30 years ago. HAhahahaha Now I'm convinced. You really DO have an open mind! After all, you tried it 30 years ago!

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Re: The NNN/BC Truth Thread

Post by Cannatonic » Sat Dec 19, 2015 2:13 pm

has anyone mentioned the biggest advantage of NNNBC….ease-of-removal at stream and road crossings. I've converted to 3-pin for now, but I see nothing negative w/ NNNBC - it absolutely rocks compared to all the older system bindings, I remember the one with the thin slot running down the binding with the tiny 1/4" clamp at the front, it was awful.

and leather 3-pin boots aren't dead yet - Crispi Antarctic and Alico Double are going strong. I'm going to keep lobbying STP and Alico to do a run of the Supertelemark. STP just added several new Alico hiking boots…there is hope!
"All wisdom is to be gained through suffering"
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lilcliffy
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Favorite Skis: Asnes Ingstad BC; Asnes Gamme 54 BC; Asnes Falketind 62;Asnes Storetind Carbon
Favorite boots: Alfa Guard Advance BC; Alpina Alaska BC; Scarpa T4
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Re: The NNN/BC Truth Thread

Post by lilcliffy » Sat Dec 19, 2015 7:25 pm

MikeK wrote: Lilcliffy and I weren't arguing, at least I wasn't arguing with him - I was however debating an idea and trying to convey my thoughts, and him to me.
Glad you feel the same way man.
Cross-country AND down-hill skiing in the backcountry.
Unashamed to be a "cross-country type" and love skiing down-hill.

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lilcliffy
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Posts: 2456
Joined: Thu Jan 01, 2015 7:20 pm
Location: Stanley, New Brunswick, Canada
Ski style: Nordic backcountry touring
Favorite Skis: Asnes Ingstad BC; Asnes Gamme 54 BC; Asnes Falketind 62;Asnes Storetind Carbon
Favorite boots: Alfa Guard Advance BC; Alpina Alaska BC; Scarpa T4
Occupation: Forestry Professional
Instructor at Maritime College of Forest Technology
Husband, father, farmer and logger

Re: The NNN/BC Truth Thread

Post by lilcliffy » Sat Dec 19, 2015 7:32 pm

Cannatonic wrote: and leather 3-pin boots aren't dead yet - Crispi Antarctic and Alico Double are going strong. I'm going to keep lobbying STP and Alico to do a run of the Supertelemark. STP just added several new Alico hiking boots…there is hope!
Aren't dead- and hopefully never will be! I am still considering getting a pair of Antarctics or Sydolpens for my 3pc setups.

You have the Antarctic- right? Is there a reason why you chose the Antarctic over the Sydolpen (GTX liner)?

3-pin boots with a welted sole are very difficult to get in Canada- and even more difficult to return if they don't fit...

I have never sized a Crispi leather boot so I would be reluctant to order from Europe or US.

There is one new supplier out in BC (Blue Ice Equipment- or something like that).
Cross-country AND down-hill skiing in the backcountry.
Unashamed to be a "cross-country type" and love skiing down-hill.

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