Two different types of short radius turn

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lilcliffy

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Re: Two different types of short radius turn

Postby lilcliffy » Mon Apr 20, 2015 9:36 am

Been following this thread...and struggling with what I want to say about it...

First of all- I do think that the CANSI video is deliberately over-emphasizing the telemark stance for the benefit of a teaching video. Obviously- there would be no need for a deep, trad telemark stance on that kind of terrain/snow and heavy equipment! BUT- if one was teaching the telemark at a groomed resort, on heavy equipment- one might have to overemphasize that deep telemark stance- otherwise skiers will simply end up making hybrid alpine-telemark turns with a slight telemark flex through the turn.

I do not believe that there is any one "telemark stance"- the stance needed depends on a wide range of complex conditions including terrain, snow, cover, and equipment.

In other words- although I completely agree that Telehiro's technique is much more efficient than the technique shown in the first CANSI video; I doubt very much that it would always work in all conditions/contexts.

Most of the telemark videos on the net show skiers on pretty ideal snow/terrain conditions. Telemark skiing in the backcountry requires a lot of flexibility and variability in technique. I believe that this is true in general- but I believe that this is especially true on light Nordic backcountry equipment. Heavy-duty, big-mountain telemark gear offer so much strength, leverage and power to steer skis.

Personally, I think that a ski instructor is doing students a favor by over-emphasizing the telemark stance. There are many, many situations where I need to crank a deep trad telemark stance in order to maintain control and carve- especially when I am on light equipment. It is certainly inefficient, and I only use it when I need it.
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CIMA

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Re: Two different types of short radius turn

Postby CIMA » Tue Apr 21, 2015 12:50 am

lilcliffy wrote:First of all- I do think that the CANSI video is deliberately over-emphasizing the telemark stance for the benefit of a teaching video. Obviously- there would be no need for a deep, trad telemark stance on that kind of terrain/snow and heavy equipment! BUT- if one was teaching the telemark at a groomed resort, on heavy equipment- one might have to overemphasize that deep telemark stance- otherwise skiers will simply end up making hybrid alpine-telemark turns with a slight telemark flex through the turn.

Though I've never taken the lessons of the CANSI, the "de-emphasized" style of the CANSI and that of Telehiro would be different. In addition there are very few points in common between alpine and Telehiro's turn as far as I remembered his sayings and demos. From my point of view CANSI's style looks very "textbookish," and many telemarkers would call it to their minds when they're asked what telemark skiing would be. On the other hand Telehiro's style look like something untraditional.

lilcliffy wrote:In other words- although I completely agree that Telehiro's technique is much more efficient than the technique shown in the first CANSI video; I doubt very much that it would always work in all conditions/contexts.

Of course there is no one right telemark stance. However it is true that my skill of telemark improved a lot after I had followed the way of his turns in terms of stability and the levels of fatigue in legs.
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Re: Two different types of short radius turn

Postby Johnny » Tue Apr 21, 2015 10:36 am

I think CIMA wanted compare 2 different types of skiing, not two types of schools or teaching... Over-emphasizing movements is something I do too to teach newbies, and this is how I learned to tele myself, by doing so. But some are really skiing like this...

I do think that the CANSI video is deliberately over-emphasizing the telemark stance for the benefit of a teaching video

You'd be surprised... Telling you, some people really ski the groomers like that here!

There's no right and wrong, just different styles and different skiers with different bodies. And different kinds of fun. But the ultimate goal is to go down and do some turns, not to stop... ; )
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Re: Two different types of short radius turn

Postby lilcliffy » Tue Apr 21, 2015 11:21 am

CIMA-

I did not mean to give you the impression that I thought that Telehiro's technique was "alpinish"- he is obviously a gifted, and highly skilled telemark/Nordic skier.

My intention was to suggest that it is very easy to make alpine turns on heavy-duty, big-mountain Nordic equipment- especially on ideal, groomed snow. I was suggesting that perhaps the CANSI instructor is deliberately over-emphasizing the telemark stance, in order to break alpine skiers away from their habits.

I know from my own experience- having much alpine experience- learning to telemark on big-mountain equipment, did not help me develop true telemark/Nordic skills. With the very strong/rigid boots/bindings I was able to rely on my alpine technique. In my limited experience, and in my humble opinion, this will not work on traditional, lighter telemark/Nordic equipment- especially in highly variable, backcountry conditions.
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Re: Two different types of short radius turn

Postby dschane » Tue Apr 21, 2015 4:08 pm

lilcliffy wrote:I did not mean to give you the impression that I thought that Telehiro's technique was "alpinish"- he is obviously a gifted, and highly skilled telemark/Nordic skier.

It's "alpinish" in one sense -- he has very little vertical movement. In my first tele lesson a long time ago, we traversed slopes bouncing up and down and were told to think of ourselves behaving like a spring. That doesn't seem to be his style at all.

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Re: Two different types of short radius turn

Postby Johnny » Tue Apr 21, 2015 5:22 pm

Telehiro obviously has a strong XC background... As his high alpinish stance is the very best way to ski downhill with XC gear... You need to do very fine and subtle movements to XCD with that kind of gear... You can't attack, only embrace... He just kept and applied this style to his telemark skiing as well, which is very, very cool in my opinion... But the spring thing is very useful to absorb and dissect technical terrain on heavy gear... It's just a matter of using the right technique for the right terrain... You should invite your friend over here one day CIMA! 8-)
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Re: Two different types of short radius turn

Postby 1EyedJack » Tue Apr 21, 2015 7:17 pm

LoveJohnny wrote:Telehiro obviously has a strong XC background... As his high alpinish stance is the very best way to ski downhill with XC gear... You need to do very fine and subtle movements to XCD with that kind of gear... You can't attack, only embrace... He just kept and applied this style to his telemark skiing as well, which is very, very cool in my opinion... But the spring thing is very useful to absorb and dissect technical terrain on heavy gear... It's just a matter of using the right technique for the right terrain... You should invite your friend over here one day CIMA! 8-)

Well said. For me, it all boils down to matching gear, terrain/snow conditions, and technique. And gaining confidence in your abilities.
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CIMA

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Re: Two different types of short radius turn

Postby CIMA » Wed Apr 22, 2015 12:57 am

lilcliffy wrote:I know from my own experience- having much alpine experience- learning to telemark on big-mountain equipment, did not help me develop true telemark/Nordic skills. With the very strong/rigid boots/bindings I was able to rely on my alpine technique. In my limited experience, and in my humble opinion, this will not work on traditional, lighter telemark/Nordic equipment- especially in highly variable, backcountry conditions.

I wonder if fixed "forward inclination" of the plastic boots makes many telemark skiers feel difficult to take their stances freely other than a lunge, which usually accompanies vertical body movement. If they stand with both feet together, it would be so natural for them to get back to conventional alpine ski techniques.

As the height of cuff becomes lower or the material of the boots becomes softer, our ankles get more freedom, and as a result, we can change their stances easily according to the conditions of snow and terrain. In fact telehiro seldom wears highly-cuffed boots such as Scarpa T1 or T2.

LoveJohnny wrote:Telehiro obviously has a strong XC background...

You seem very insightful. He's a good XC skier and was once a world-cup telemark skier during the time of 3-pins, leather boots and skinny skies.
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Re: Two different types of short radius turn

Postby Rodbelan » Wed Apr 22, 2015 7:14 am

We forgot to say that you are pretty good too... I can tell from the vids you post under «Telecima»...

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Re: Two different types of short radius turn

Postby Johnny » Wed Apr 22, 2015 8:13 am

It's "alpinish" in one sense -- he has very little vertical movement.

Yeah we have to be careful to make sure we see the distinction between having a high stance and doing the "fake" alpinish telemark that most alpine skiers do when they start tellying. (Is there a name for that?)

This is what most of us do the first time we try telemark, just putting one leg slightly in the back pretending it's tele. But Telehiro, among others, is properly pressuring the skis while not losing any precious energy... This is how we ski on light gear. This, is XCD. The CANSI guy is simply chopping every single turn in the less efficient way... But yeah, it's two totally different styles... TH is a real master... Pretty sure he's doing Tai Chi or Kung Fu too... ; )

It's so easy to rely on the plastic boots for balance and stability... While you need to have the right technique to do so on leathers... Bla bla bla ok stop it Johnny...
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