Telemark Talk / Telemark Tips Forum

Good points above @CIMA! I agree also with your critique on my posts My main point was that the Santa Fe edging drills can be useful, when learning b-tele, even if the drills have a-tele origins. I do agree that the Santa Fe in itself is not b-tele.

CIMA wrote: ↑

Sat Dec 16, 2023 1:39 am

This is an example that looks like B-tele but is different.

I think the above a-tele video has a nice sequence of drills, too.

1. Edging & sweeping (tele walk)
2. Pivot turn (tele pivot slip)
3. No lead change (monomark, monotele)
4. Shuffling while turning
5. Telemark turn (monomark to start; parallel at the fall line; telemark to finish)

I think trying out 1-4 can help, when learning b-tele. Those are drills. Five is an a-tele turn.

Still the "monomark to start" of step five may be a useful idea in b-tele, too. It can help you to get edging right, when starting a sweep. I had issues with initial edging first. Telehiro does not tell you how to edge really, so that you could use in b-tele maybe. Otherwise b-tele transitions are a little different.

I guess "parallel at the fall line" is same as "return to zero" in b-tele.

Finally, tele stance weighting here is clearly not b-tele. That knee-dropping makes this a-tele, doesn't it?

Also the b-tele inner leg speed control strategy is not visible on the video. That is related to the knee dropping. And when you miss the b-tele speed control strategy, I guess you miss the short radiuses of short b-turns, too.

I’m not sure if you can learn B tele without being at a high level of getting and staying centered and having good edge control. It’s certainly something to aspire to, but it takes more finesse and is less forgiving than A tele.

Montana St Alum wrote: ↑

Mon Dec 18, 2023 8:15 am

CIMA wrote: ↑

Mon Dec 18, 2023 2:41 am

B-tele skiers are able to move the lead ski more easily and efficiently than alpine skiers, thanks to the use of heel-free and low-cut boots.

I don't see how this can be true. I can crank turns pretty well on tely gear, but nothing like what I could do on alpine gear. It just has way more power and better instantaneous engagement with huge leverage advantages over any set up with a free heel. B-tely may have its place with light gear on low angle, but it's quite a stretch to compare that with Mikaela Shiffrin dominating a slalom course.

It appears that you think your skiing style aligns more with the A-tele technique, involving squatting during turns, while B-tele skiers use opposing techniques, focusing on extension. Squatting and moving the lead leg forward simultaneously may be challenging. Moreover, you might lack experience with low-cut boots. Trying on leather Telemark or NNN-BC boots would reveal a considerable increase in freedom of movement.

Sidney Dunkin wrote: ↑

Mon Dec 18, 2023 9:41 am

I think The Telehiro bump how to video above shows what I’m talking about. It show the lack of vertical movement which is the result of keeping both skis weighted throughout the turn. B tele is a two footed, mostly evenly weighted turn. It relies on being in a tight stance with your center of gravity being more over your rear ski than in A tele. If you can achieve these two things you can adapt B tele to a lot of different terrain and conditions. The only time B won’t work is when you need to heavily weight your skis, like in poor conditions or when you don’t have enough skill to control your speed in B tele.

While the term B tele is new to me, the technique isn’t.

Sidney Dunkin wrote: ↑

Mon Dec 18, 2023 1:07 pm

I’m not sure if you can learn B tele without being at a high level of getting and staying centered and having good edge control. It’s certainly something to aspire to, but it takes more finesse and is less forgiving than A tele.

In my view, B-tele techniques lean more towards Nordic skiing. For instance, cross-country skiers wouldn't fixate on concepts like "equal weighting" and "focusing body center," which are more pertinent to alpine skiing. It's akin to how we don't concern ourselves with such terminology while walking.

B-tele stances widen on steep slopes, increasing the edge angle of the leading ski. B-tele turns outperform A-tele in efficiency, thus reducing the need for B-tele skiers to weigh down heavily. Moreover, in challenging snow conditions, adept B-tele skiers manage better than their A-tele counterparts. Personally, since adopting B-tele, I rarely experienced forward dives and falls.

tkarhu wrote: ↑

Mon Dec 18, 2023 12:38 pm

Still the "monomark to start" of step five may be a useful idea in b-tele, too. It can help you to get edging right, when starting a sweep. I had issues with initial edging first. Telehiro does not tell you how to edge really, so that you could use in b-tele maybe. Otherwise b-tele transitions are a little different.

I guess "parallel at the fall line" is same as "return to zero" in b-tele.

Finally, tele stance weighting here is clearly not b-tele. That knee-dropping makes this a-tele, doesn't it?

Also the b-tele inner leg speed control strategy is not visible on the video. That is related to the knee dropping. And when you miss the b-tele speed control strategy, I guess you miss the short radiuses of short b-turns, too.

I'm curious if you're still extending your body when crossing over like A-tele skiers, even though you should contract if you're following B-tele. The concept of extension-contraction is crucial and opposite to A-tele techniques. It's important to understand that the functions of the edging of B-tele are different between the lead and rear skis. The rear ski skids or sinks, while the lead ski swings and carves. This has already been explained in TH's writings on B-tele.

CIMA wrote: ↑

Tue Dec 19, 2023 12:58 am

Sidney Dunkin wrote: ↑

Mon Dec 18, 2023 9:41 am

I think The Telehiro bump how to video above shows what I’m talking about. It show the lack of vertical movement which is the result of keeping both skis weighted throughout the turn. B tele is a two footed, mostly evenly weighted turn. It relies on being in a tight stance with your center of gravity being more over your rear ski than in A tele. If you can achieve these two things you can adapt B tele to a lot of different terrain and conditions. The only time B won’t work is when you need to heavily weight your skis, like in poor conditions or when you don’t have enough skill to control your speed in B tele.

While the term B tele is new to me, the technique isn’t.

Sidney Dunkin wrote: ↑

Mon Dec 18, 2023 1:07 pm

I’m not sure if you can learn B tele without being at a high level of getting and staying centered and having good edge control. It’s certainly something to aspire to, but it takes more finesse and is less forgiving than A tele.

In my view, B-tele techniques lean more towards Nordic skiing. For instance, cross-country skiers wouldn't fixate on concepts like "equal weighting" and "focusing body center," which are more pertinent to alpine skiing. It's akin to how we don't concern ourselves with such terminology while walking.

B-tele stances widen on steep slopes, increasing the edge angle of the leading ski. B-tele turns outperform A-tele in efficiency, thus reducing the need for B-tele skiers to weigh down heavily. Moreover, in challenging snow conditions, adept B-tele skiers manage better than their A-tele counterparts. Personally, since adopting B-tele, I rarely experienced forward dives and falls.

If in B tele, if you don’t need to know how to weight your skis or know where your center of mass is, it should be easy. But I don’t think that’s the case.

Some snow conditions require a heavily weighted ski, like crust, there’s no way around that. The reason why you haven’t experienced any forward falls is because, like I said, your center of mass is further back then in A tele. So, while in your view you don’t need to think about equal weighting and your COM you still need to get it right.

CIMA wrote: ↑

Tue Dec 19, 2023 12:36 am

Montana St Alum wrote: ↑

Mon Dec 18, 2023 8:15 am

CIMA wrote: ↑

Mon Dec 18, 2023 2:41 am

B-tele skiers are able to move the lead ski more easily and efficiently than alpine skiers, thanks to the use of heel-free and low-cut boots.

I don't see how this can be true. I can crank turns pretty well on tely gear, but nothing like what I could do on alpine gear. It just has way more power and better instantaneous engagement with huge leverage advantages over any set up with a free heel. B-tely may have its place with light gear on low angle, but it's quite a stretch to compare that with Mikaela Shiffrin dominating a slalom course.

It appears that you think your skiing style aligns more with the A-tele technique, involving squatting during turns, while B-tele skiers use opposing techniques, focusing on extension. Squatting and moving the lead leg forward simultaneously may be challenging. Moreover, you might lack experience with low-cut boots. Trying on leather Telemark or NNN-BC boots would reveal a considerable increase in freedom of movement.

My tely skiing is very close in many ways to my alpine skiing. I expect that is very A-Tely, Vs. B-tely. I'm not arguing against any style or technique, just that there are limitations inherent in them.

ROM in light gear provides a sense of freedom for sure. But ROM doesn't necessarily translate into greater capability. If I were to ski alpine in walk mode it wouldn't translate into greater capability even though it would provide greater ROM. I can alpine ski stuff that would be impossible for me to ski on heavy tely gear. And I can tely ski stuff that would be out of the question on light gear. That's just harder to do. I can see that it's possible that b-tely makes it easier - just not easier than alpine skiing.

CIMA wrote: ↑

Tue Dec 19, 2023 1:16 am

tkarhu wrote: ↑

Mon Dec 18, 2023 12:38 pm

Still the "monomark to start" of step five may be a useful idea in b-tele, too. It can help you to get edging right, when starting a sweep. I had issues with initial edging first. Telehiro does not tell you how to edge really, so that you could use in b-tele maybe. Otherwise b-tele transitions are a little different.

I guess "parallel at the fall line" is same as "return to zero" in b-tele.

Finally, tele stance weighting here is clearly not b-tele. That knee-dropping makes this a-tele, doesn't it?

Also the b-tele inner leg speed control strategy is not visible on the video. That is related to the knee dropping. And when you miss the b-tele speed control strategy, I guess you miss the short radiuses of short b-turns, too.

I'm curious if you're still extending your body when crossing over like A-tele skiers, even though you should contract if you're following B-tele. The concept of extension-contraction is crucial and opposite to A-tele techniques. It's important to understand that the functions of the edging of B-tele are different between the lead and rear skis. The rear ski skids or sinks, while the lead ski swings and carves. This has already been explained in TH's writings on B-tele.

I have managed to transform my earlier extended neutral stance into a contracted, "squat-like" neutral stance already. Where I still need to add some adaptations to b-tele instructions is edging.

tkarhu wrote: ↑

Sun Dec 17, 2023 2:10 pm

I intentionally put my outer ski on its inner edge initially. I do that with a short mountain-side-of-body contraction often. Or by focusing on the inner edge of my outer leg foot sole.

By contrast, according to b-tele instructions, you should re-direct your skis by pivoting and bent-ski-releasing. However, if you watch the first video above, even TH himself "squats" as late as close to fall line. At the slow speed, it seems he initiates turns in some other way first.

It may be he initiates the movement by central body movements, like an initial mountain-side-of-body contraction. In terms of ski-snow interface, side-of-body contractions and extensions produce carving. Or maybe he initiates the video turns just by starting to sweep. I guess the sweep also means partial carving, because you sweep with a foot inner edge there. Or maybe he releases edges just by relaxing his legs. When skiing faster, bent-ski-release may be a major factor. It looks like re-direct and release mechanisms vary within b-tele.

When I started to make a sides-of-body-tilt, when sweeping, I managed to drop intermediate steps of weighting from my skiing. Sometimes I just flow from a turn to another with the sides-of-body-tilts now. Currently, weight often flows from outer ski to inner ski with each sweep. That makes it feel a bit like XC skiing, or kayaking. A fast pace of alternating sides may add to such feels.

I have added also another intermediate step to b-tele instructions. Before starting a sweep, I extend my legs. That seems necessary because my sweeps end up in a slightly squatted position, with contracted ankles. I end up there because I pressure my braking ski with extensions from knee up only. My ankles are somewhat bent and heel down in my current tele stance.

The extension of legs gives you some space to free-fall and down-unweight release. Actually the second video a-tele skier does that, too. So I still "pump", move up and down vertically like the second video skier Yet my pumping feels more subtle. By the way, what might make the second video skier look a bit clumsy is that he has his weight forward, so his skis start to slide forward, when he is expected to skid.

I would not even call straigthening your legs "impulsing". But maybe b-tele elegance comes from omitting such unnecessary intermediate steps?

Sidney Dunkin wrote: ↑

Tue Dec 19, 2023 6:43 am

If in B tele, if you don’t need to know how to weight your skis or know where your center of mass is, it should be easy. But I don’t think that’s the case.

Some snow conditions require a heavily weighted ski, like crust, there’s no way around that. The reason why you haven’t experienced any forward falls is because, like I said, your center of mass is further back then in A tele. So, while in your view you don’t need to think about equal weighting and your COM you still need to get it right.

I am constantly adjusting my posture and weight distribution while skiing, so it's natural for me to believe that my center of mass is also changing. Although I instinctively balance myself, I don't prioritize weight distribution like others might. My main focus is sensing where gravity is pulling me, particularly on steep slopes. The momentum of falling always guides me in the right direction and informs me how I should adjust my behavior. I don't have a fixed approach to weight distribution while skiing.

Montana St Alum wrote: ↑

Tue Dec 19, 2023 8:39 am

My tely skiing is very close in many ways to my alpine skiing. I expect that is very A-Tely, Vs. B-tely. I'm not arguing against any style or technique, just that there are limitations inherent in them.

ROM in light gear provides a sense of freedom for sure. But ROM doesn't necessarily translate into greater capability. If I were to ski alpine in walk mode it wouldn't translate into greater capability even though it would provide greater ROM. I can alpine ski stuff that would be impossible for me to ski on heavy tely gear. And I can tely ski stuff that would be out of the question on light gear. That's just harder to do. I can see that it's possible that b-tely makes it easier - just not easier than alpine skiing.

I just want to clarify that in my previous post, I did not discuss the overall skiing technique in a broad sense like what you referred to as "greater capability." I was simply pointing out that B-tele skiers who use low-cut boots have an easier time swinging their lead skis compared to alpine skiers due to the freedom of their heels and ankles. The topic of our discussion is quite narrow. However, if you ever get the chance to rent an XC setup, you can experience this for yourself.