Telehiro and B-Tele Discussion

[CIMA]

A and B tele are indeed branches of the same tree. You may need to mix them on the same run to stay balanced and centered, whatever it takes to keep your feet under you. Most likely some turns are a combination of the two.

I don’t see differences of opinion as arguments. Sometimes it takes a little discussion to realize that we actually agree on something, but are expressing it differently.

True. These techniques are just tools. I do think a pure pursuit of b-Tely is valuable. Once that's conquered and it's "in your quiver" of options, it's bound to make you a better skier.

I prefer B-tele techniques over A-tele techniques because I find them more practical during backcountry tours. Although I initially learned A-tele, I later switched to B-tele and discovered its benefits through experience. If you primarily ski in resorts, then you don't need to worry about whether you use A or B-tele techniques, as I mentioned in my previous post.

[Montana St Alum]

I understand that you are discussing the technical proficiency of alpine skiers, but I would like to clarify that my previous statement referred only to the swing movements in the following picture.

No.
That's not what I'm saying.
I'm saying it is a gear limitation.
It's not technical proficiency.

[Sidney Dunkin]

This thread is exhausting, let me know when the crib notes version comes out

Keep both skis weighted throughout the turn, eliminate the vertical motion. From what I can see this is this biggest difference between A and B and should be enough to get started towards smoother less physically demanding skiing.

[Rodbelan]

This thread is exhausting, let me know when the crib notes version comes out

Keep both skis weighted throughout the turn, eliminate the vertical motion. From what I can see this is this biggest difference between A and B and should be enough to get started towards smoother less physically demanding skiing.

We should probably add the contraction dynamics of the lower body, instead of extension (which results in a vertical up and down). That's what I learned from the last TH vid... I'll practice it during holidays.

[Montana St Alum]

This thread is exhausting, let me know when the crib notes version comes out

Keep both skis weighted throughout the turn, eliminate the vertical motion. From what I can see this is this biggest difference between A and B and should be enough to get started towards smoother less physically demanding skiing.

We should probably add the contraction dynamics of the lower body, instead of extension (which results in a vertical up and down). That's what I learned from the last TH vid... I'll practice it during holidays.

I know you know this, but you can't contract unless you are extended. And once you contract, to contract again, you have to reset to the extended position. In practice, they are intricately connected and sometimes the extension to unweight becomes indistinguishable in the process from the contraction to unweight - especially as the time between unweighting shrinks down. These are probably useful techniques to have in your quiver, but I wouldn't throw away the rest of the quiver.

A useful analogy is the front fork on a mountain bike, or even a motorcycle. If it starts getting harsh, many people will try to slow compression when what they need to do is speed up rebound, otherwise, the fork stays near the bottom of its travel and "packs down" until its travel is unusable.

[Rodbelan]

Make sens... But as you say, it is just another tool in the tool box, not the ultimate thing to know...

And proprioception wants experience... and I have a limited faith in how words can carry that in a precise way. I'll try to figure that out *in concreto*...

I remember that in the book «Telemark tips» there is one that's relevant to what we are discussing here (contraction).

[tkarhu]

A Xmas present from telehiro? Merry Xmas to all t-talkers!

"Shot a selfie video on NTN. Then edited it to look like a teaching video."



In my eyes, Telehiro demonstrates the movement patterns of different length B-turns. Rhythm and timing seem to be main differences between the short and long turns.

[tkarhu]

Now, let's discuss braking on powder snow. B-tele turns in powder […] lessen the dependence on wide skis.
…
Initially, TH taps the snow with his heels together, a recommended precursor to gain speed and maintain buoyancy. He then takes small, alternating sliding steps.
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As TH advances the lead ski, his upper body naturally leans back slightly to maintain an upright stance. […] Pushing the rear ski down helps the tip to rise, and if the tips of both skis come up, the turn naturally occurs as you twist your pelvis.
…
braking […] on powder, it involves "sinking" or "burying" the skis […] It's important to note his stomping of the rear ski's heel […] it's merely part of the "extension" movements. his upper body naturally leans back […] This counterbalance, along with the stomping, effectively weights the rear ski.

One of the easiest ways to confirm how well you have mastered B-tele is by skiing on powder snow that is less than knee deep and making continuous turns. If you feel different sensations of floating and find that the turns are easier to execute, then those are proofs of improvement in your technique.

Today, I skied b-tele in about ten inches of powder with light crust on top. Like CIMA writes above, the tapping really added to float.

But @CIMA, are tapping and stomping somehow one thing? You do tapping for gaining speed, and stomping for braking. Yet somehow they seem related, too. Is that correct?

Towards end of session, short b-turns started to run smoothly. I just skied like earlier, when practising. I have pressured the rear part of my lead ski on Gammes, too. Is that leaning back the stomping, actually? (If so, why the word "stomping"?)

EDIT: Reading more carefully, instructions are to “push your rear ski down”. So on Gammes, I have had a slightly different way of bringing weight backwards.

EDIT: Are you on your rear foot heel in powder, when braking? Is the stomping a heel press? On harder snow, I have had weight on rear ski ball-of-foot, when skidding / braking.

Note, in powder you seem to get away with weak edging and angulation. I guess my angulation was an issue with b-tele first because I had skied tele on Gammes in powder, and started b-tele on groomed snow.

I guess I have no idea, if there is something special to braking in powder b-turns. I still used turning for speed control. When it got a little steeper, I did slightly longer turns. At mellow gradients, I could do fast pelvis rotations, which gave short turns. See photos below.

[tkarhu]

Consider the video presented here:



TH and his student illustratively show the braking movements. On consolidated snow, braking is achieved by scrubbing the skis, but on powder, it involves "sinking" or "burying" the skis, to use TH's terminology.

Initially, TH taps the snow with his heels together, a recommended precursor to gain speed and maintain buoyancy. He then takes small, alternating sliding steps. It's important to note his stomping of the rear ski's heel. Some might interpret this as "weighting," but here, it's merely part of the "extension" movements. As TH advances the lead ski, his upper body naturally leans back slightly to maintain an upright stance. This counterbalance, along with the stomping, effectively weights the rear ski. It's crucial not to lean forward when advancing the lead ski. Pushing the rear ski down helps the tip to rise, and if the tips of both skis come up, the turn naturally occurs as you twist your pelvis.

Practicing the steps shown by TH in the video is a good way to learn powder skiing techniques. Enjoy!

Below is an interpretation, what to try out tomorrow.

B-tele in powder and crust

To gain speed and maintain buoyancy, tap snow with your heels together, before starting any turns. When starting turns, take small sliding steps on alternate sides.

Bury the tail of your inner (mountain side) ski to slow down, float the tail to speed up. In powder, a b-tele body extension may feel like stomping your heel. Bury the tail by extending your mountain side.

When sweeping an outer ski, your upper body leans naturally slightly back to maintain an upright stance. When both ski tips come up, you can turn by twisting your pelvis.

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The summary is edited frome above quote and the b-tele intro.

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Tryout results: Braking by bringing weight backwards worked, when snow was skis sank about 10+" deep. Extending your mountain side leg and body at ends of turns brought weight to the mountain side ski, and put the ski on edge. The edging cut speed, and so did bringing your weight back. The movements together made skis turn easier, but sometimes decreased speed too much, to a halt.

[tkarhu]

FYI I described first experiences of b-tele on Gammes.