Helens on xcd gear tomorrow - any last minute advice?

[Jlars13]

Going to try to summit Mt. St. Helens tomorrow with a group of 4, I’ll be the only one on xcd - Madshus Panorama 68, alpina alaskas, nnnBC. This will be my first summit, first time ski mountaineering. I’m comfortable with the gear I have - G3 skins, ice axe, crampons, beacon shovel probe, etc. Two weekends ago I went out to Hood and toured from government camp to the top of Palmer chair on this setup to practice and managed it fine- a couple falls because the snow was wet mashed potatoes up towards the top. Just wondering if any other PNW folks have any last minute advice advice. Should I ski with ice axe in one hand instead of a pole? Anything to make sure I avoid/am aware of up there for this setup? I’m planning to A-frame and glissade down a steep section if it feels too sketchy (bad idea? Good idea?).

Any help/advice much appreciated. Thanks!

[spopepro]

What route are you doing?

Skiing with an axe is considered a last resort option. You only do that when you’re in waaay over your head in catastrophic no-fall territory. You shouldn’t end up there, especially on mt st Helens.

If you’ve skied this gear down Palmer you’ll likely be OK. Take it slow and know that there’s no style points awarded for ski mountaineering. Side-slip, kick turn, or walk wherever you feel you need to. No one will blink.

I never glissade. I think it’s the most dangerous thing you can do on the mountain and know many people with significant injuries from doing so.

I don’t know the full conditions where you are, but in not cal/Oregon it’s been too hot to get a good overnight freeze, making hard to find good corn conditions. You ran into that on Palmer. We found good corn yesterday at 11k-13k on west slopes on Shasta between 1200-1300. But that was kind of it. The most important part of the tour, in my mind, is starting at the right time to hit whatever tiny corn window you can.

Have fun, and be sure to tell us how it went!

[Jlars13]

What route are you doing?

Skiing with an axe is considered a last resort option. You only do that when you’re in waaay over your head in catastrophic no-fall territory. You shouldn’t end up there, especially on mt st Helens.

We’re doing worm flows, and my partner has been checking conditions and Facebook groups to try to get us the best start time, so hopefully we can find at least a little corn too! We’re sleeping at the trailhead so hopefully we can be a little flexible with the start time if we need to. Thank you for the warning on skiing with an axe, def good to know. And on glissading being dangerous as well, I’ve been re-reading the last post I made here on jump turns where people gave great advice on side slipping, wedge/step turns etc, so ill follow that advice rather than glissade if I feel sketched out.

[spopepro]

You will make everyone super envious on the way out. There’s a long long ways out at the end where your gear will shine.

You might even be able to make the top just on skins. Depends a bit on path and conditions, but always remember to crampon up before you feel like you *must*. It’s hard to transition on steep slopes.

[Jlars13]

Have fun, and be sure to tell us how it went!

Successfully summited, got down alive and in one piece but it was a very humbling experience, I probably should have had 2-3 more seasons on this setup under my belt to do that cleanly.

We started at 4:30ish, went pretty slow and summited just before noon, ended up a-framing and boot-packing most of the mountain, unfortunately. We may have taken the wrong route up for skinning, or the snow may have just been too wet and loose, even on the ascent. Steps were kicked in, didn’t end up using ice axe or crampons.

The ride down was pretty abysmal for me, definitely a sufferfest. Fell so many times I lost count, definitely took my skis off and walked a hundred feet or so at one point. Somewhere mid mountain we got to a short sketchy steep section that my friends on AT setups were cautious on, I ended up falling, trigged a tiny wet slide and rode it down maybe 50 feet.
I was already so wiped from the climb that it was almost impossible to keep my speed in check, I would link two or three janky turns and then fall every single time. Snow was loose mashed potatoes the whole way, as expected.

The flatter section at the end was a good time.

Overall, 6.5/10 would ski a volcano again, but not every weekend and not on this gear. Even if I were to get good enough to ski this setup more successfully, it’s just so much slower on the downhill that I felt like an asshole making everyone wait for me the whole time. I’m definitely going to pull the trigger on some skis I can tour with my 75mm bindings and crispi XRs now. The bindings are currently on some old twin tip Line park skis I got for free that are VERY heavy.

[Manney]

I was already so wiped from the climb that it was almost impossible to keep my speed in check, I would link two or three janky turns and then fall every single time.

That’s the thing about the climb, it’s physically draining… a much higher fitness and skills level is needed to turn it around successfully for the descent.

… or the snow may have just been too wet and loose, even on the ascent.

Understandable. Very late in the season. Added to the difficulty.

Successfully summited, got down alive and in one piece but it was a very humbling experience, I probably should have had 2-3 more seasons on this setup under my belt to do that cleanly.

Nature always wins…. But you tried something new… pushed boundaries. Keep going next season!

[spopepro]

Hey, you did it! That's rad.

Sounds like you got a late start to me. If you were still skiing and setting off loose wet slides then the snow had warmed too much at that point. It is hard to know how fast you'll go up if you haven't been doing it a fair bit. Humbling experiences in the big mountains is how it goes for just about everyone from time to time.

Also... your experience is why I tele just about everywhere but big mountains. The control per gram of modern AT stuff is just too good. Sure, I could tele wide open corn slopes in perfect condition, but scooting down a tight 50deg icy chute to drop in to the wide field? No thanks. The folks I see mountaineering with free heels ski heavy tele gear and are strong af. The old hardmen in leathers would employ all kinds of tricks to get down, kick turns and walking.

But the important thing--you made it. Next time in better style. Cheers.

[TallGrass]

Very cool and sounds like a great adventure!!!

We started at 4:30ish, went pretty slow and summited just before noon, ended up a-framing and boot-packing most of the mountain, unfortunately. We may have taken the wrong route up for skinning, or the snow may have just been too wet and loose, even on the ascent. Steps were kicked in, didn’t end up using ice axe or crampons.

Welcome to spring conditions!

Fell so many times I lost count, definitely took my skis off and walked a hundred feet or so at one point. Somewhere mid mountain we got to a short sketchy steep section that my friends on AT setups were cautious on, I ended up falling, trigged a tiny wet slide and rode it down maybe 50 feet.
I was already so wiped from the climb that it was almost impossible to keep my speed in check, I would link two or three janky turns and then fall every single time. Snow was loose mashed potatoes the whole way, as expected.

Some thoughts on Skier Self Arrest... or Non-Arrest...

One thing I've found is there are two types of ski falls. The default is to stop, then straighten things out. The finer is to go with the fall and roll back onto your skis and or to direct them appropriately (skiers left or right). It can depend on slope angle, snow depth/penetration, what you have on your pack, how free your skis are, if you can manage it with poles, and so one. Nonetheless, I've caught an edge at the resort and "rolled with it" back onto my skis and kept going, and similar away from the groomed stuff in steeper and deeper snow (think double black) where the snow helped to cushion and slow. When it's tele' gear (including Nordic) it's more of rolling to get back in position with skis below me.

Instead of an ice axe, you could also go with a Grivel Condor which unlike a Whippet allows you to store away the pick.
https://us.grivel.com/products/condor-3
https://gearjunkie.com/climbing/grivel- ... ole-review


Ski Mountaineering: Whippet or Ice Axe?

https://www.renoskiandrec.com/page/show ... elf-arrest

https://earnyourturns.com/11494/review- ... 3-options/

The other thing to consider is what are you doing with your poles, mainly whether to use the wrist straps. My ski poles don't even have straps, and many advise not to use them on descent to avoid injuries in a fall. Some have breakaway straps, but many even forego or remove those for downhill. The way around "but I don't want to lose my $$$ poles!!!" is do get cheap used ones, then fit your own baskets etc. to your taste.

Even if I were to get good enough to ski this setup more successfully, it’s just so much slower on the downhill that I felt like an asshole making everyone wait for me the whole time.

Good partners will just be happy if you get down safely and in a (relatively) timely manner that doesn't put them in danger. It's common for snowshoers to wait on skiers on the ascent, and skiers wait for the snowshoers on the way down.

I've been at the resort with friends who are new to skiing and or their gear, such as a new-to-them 2-pin AT set up. It's never been a problem, even when they apologize we say it's "all good" and emphasize fun and avoiding injury. We just communicate and go over What-Ifs so we're on the same page as to where to meet or signals if "all good" or "need help" similar to what you do when water skiing to let the boat driver know if they can take their time to circle back or get there ASAP even if that means risking cutting across the tow rope. (In short, two slow steady arms raised when not getting up is 'all good, ... re-composing' where as any waving, single arm, or no movement are going to be viewed as a "uh oh..."

[spopepro]

I dislike being too argumentative on the internet… but I disagree with most of what you said TallGrass. I *especially* hate doing this in Jlars’ thread—I’m sincere when I say they should be proud of getting out there and getting after it. Now I’m going to point out the mistakes (that they probably realize).

The best tours are done with folks who are moving similarly, including transitions. I don’t ski pattern base skis with folks who aren’t because we transition in different places and it just gets frustrating for everyone. I can’t imagine anyone skiing with slowshoers. Last week we skied from 13500 to the cars at 6800 in 42 minutes. It would be painful waiting the extra 3-4 hours for someone on foot. You should ski with folks on similar equipment, with similar fitness for maximum fun and safety. If I'm skiing steep, I'm not taking someone on leathers with me. (But if someone, including Jlars, wants to ski pattern based light tele/heavy XC stuff with me on lassen some time, I'd be down... just gotta have the same plan)

I am convinced focusing on self arrest is a trap and foolish. In very soft conditions you don’t need to self-arrest to stop, in very hard conditions it won’t work at all. The only time I’m sure it’s good is when on a rope and someone has a crevasse fall, then the rest of the party can self arrest to anchor the fall. Other than that—forget self arrest, stay on your feet. If you can’t, you’re not ready, so take the skis off, put the crampons on and walk. Rope up and get a belay if you’re really in over your head. Whippets and condors are specialist tools for people who are going into really dangerous terrain intentionally.

Spring skiing doesn't mean you have to struggle through slush. When it was clear that the snow was getting too soft on the way up it was time to turn around and give up the summit bid. Pushing on and getting later caused both misery and danger. Loose wet slides are seldom fatal, but often cause major injury and Jlars was lucky to escape with just a ride. They are something to always be aware of in the spring, especially when we've been getting poor overnight freezes.

There's no substitute for time on the mountain and in the terrain tho. Jlars got way more out of going for it than reading 1000 pages of opinions on here. I do wish that more of the opinions were based on experience in the terrain we are talking about tho.

[Manney]

Had some of the same thoughts as @spopepro…

Having a Whippet, Condor, BD pole etc is good for gaining a purchase on a climb… but is about as effective as prayer beads if the snowpack give way.

Not as firm in my convictions on ski bases… though agree 100% on skiing with those of similar fitness levels. It’s all about the flow… and not leaving anyone in the group behind, out of sight, on a mountain… especially in a technical situation.

WRT pole straps… judgment call. Can see doffing the straps in treed areas, donning them everywhere else. Simple Simon straps though… hand loops only. The wrist wrap ones used in XC are dangerous in certain scenarios, such as crossing frozen bodies of water.