Telemark Talk / Telemark Tips Forum

Since boots are a current topic right now I thought I'd bring this up. What I have noticed is that the weak link in traditional Norwegian welted boots is where the boot upper meets the sole. While my Merrill leather boots are old and well used the cuff is just as stiff as the day I bought them. They did soften in the toe area but still have a stiff flex because they have brand new soles on them. What I have noticed is that the boots have very little lateral stiffness when getting a ski on edge. When I try to get weight on my edges by leaning my ankles I can see the upper of the boot pivot on the sole. This isn't giving me any more pressure on my edges than I can get by weighting either the "big toe/little toe" side of my ski. I would think that a brand new pair of welted boots might be better, but if they soften with age and resoling doesn't help, you now have a boot that doesn't have the control it once did.

Comparing the old leathers to my Transnordic, with the rand that goes part way up the upper, there is a big difference in the amount of leverage I can apply to the edge. A big part of the reason is that the cuff is higher, but I think it' also has to do with the interface between the upper and the sole.

I know the advantage of being able to resole a Norwegian welt is a big one. But even after getting new soles are the boots like new? I don't think so. This probably won't matter at all to someone who isn't placing a high value on downhill performance, they probably won't even notice.

So the question is; Does a boot with a rubber rand have better downhill performance than a similar boot with the Norwegian welt. I think it does, especially over time, but many of you guys have a lot more experience with different boots than I do. Any opinions?

Allen, how old are those Merrill’s? I am just curious. I have a UK Army surplus Alico. It is a welted boot and it’s very stiff, it will be a long time before it breaks down in a manner that you are referring to. I also have two Alaska, a BC and a 75. The 75 is definitely a soft boot, however it’s only a couple years old, and I use the BC more often as my local trail skiing is better on fast skis, with the exception of the occasional bigger snow. My Alaska BC has the most miles. You can see the creases just starting to form into the rand.
You have more time on Nordic gear than me, I used to ride chairs exclusively. I think the leather just breaks down over time. I think the leather treatments are better today. My work boots are way more waterproof today than they were when I was young.
I’m glad you like the Transnordic 75, although personally I am not worried about having to replace my Alico for quite some time. The real possible problem for me is the Alaska 75. I really like this soft boot, I like it on the flats, and with the ST cable I lack no confidence going downhill.
I guess we will all be doing well as long as they keep making quality leather 75 mm boots regardless if they are welted or thermomolded soles.

Bob, I got those used back the early to mid 90s and probably skied them hard for ten years. Like I said the cuff, which is reinforced with plastic, is as stiff as new. There is softening in the toe area but your not getting any leverage from there anyway. I had Dave Page do a resole about twenty years ago and haven't used them much since, so they are in solid shape.

I just did a test, holding the cuff steady with one hand while trying to rotate the heel side to side. Not surprisingly there was a lot of flex there. I did the same with an old Merrill Double boot I have with a lot less miles and it was much stiffer. I also tested a couple pairs of work/hiking boots and they were stiffer. I checked my wife's T4, and as expected it was totally rigid. I wish I had my Transnordic here to test.

My theory is that all of the carving turns on packed trails that I did put a lot of stress on the welt area, softening it up, creating this weak link. If I wanted to have maximum control with a leather boot I should probably replace them every few seasons, but that's not practical.

I see benefits of the Norwegian welt, but I'm not sure it's the best for performance.

I do not know Al if I understand you , but you seem to forget about the shank on norge welt... It can be replaced too (not just the Vibram sole); plus, you can ask for a stiffer one... The sole flex could even be stiffer in a resoled boot than it was when you purchased them...

The midsole on a leather welted boot provides much of the lateral support; sometimes cobblers replace that midsole with a different, softer, or thinner one, which can result in losing support. Otoh, leather boots just wear out and there's a point of no return, whether resoled correctly or not.
Fwiw, the Merrell upper cuff is anchored on a plastic heel cup layered between the leather inner and outer; that cup extends somewhat forward towards the toe. A cobbler resoling the boot has to make sure that cup is still intact when the boot's resoled. The various Asolo teleboots, i.e., Extremes, Extreme Pros, etc., also have that rigid plastic in the heels.
The Alico boots are manufactured with salpa heel cups, which is a softer material than plastic, and will probably break down faster, at least if someone is doing lots of tele skiing with them. For backcountry touring, there's probably little chance of the salpa inserts breaking down very much.

Allen, I’m sure you are getting many more skiing days per year than I am. That’s the conundrum, I still work all winter and don’t wear out my boots. If I had to buy new boots at $300 a pop, it wouldn’t be the end of the world. Shoot I hear people pay $100 for a single lift ticket! However, some day I hope to have more free time, and hopefully I will still have my health, however will I still think wearing out boots and buying new ones no big deal?
I’ll be asking how those Transnordic are holding up in a couple years.

The soles are stiff, torsional and forward flexing, and the cuffs are like new. The problem is I get almost no help (leverage) from my ankles. I notice this when trying to get an edge traversing a sidehill or making turns. I get a lot more leverage from my Transnordics. Part is from the extra height and I'm thinking part is from the rubber rand.

I think a boot with the rand potentially has a better interface between the sole and upper. At any rate I don't think the old style leather boots are necessarily the best.

Fish, it's not a money thing, I just don't think I would get another N welted boot. My T4s and Transnordics are in Ak. After almost a decade skiing plastic exclusively it was a good experience going back to leather the last couple weeks. The biggest difference between the leather boot and the T4 was that with leather boot I had to get weight on the ski edge by pressuring my feet only. With plastic I just need to roll my ankles. I think I'll get a little more of this with the Transnordic making it easier on my feet.

"If I wanted to have maximum control with a leather boot I should probably replace them every few seasons, but that's not practical."

A valid observation, to be sure. Complicated by the fact that by the time the forward flex on a stout Norwegian welted leather is broken in, the uppers are starting to break down. Remember "Harris", who was active here a few years back? He offered a post which summed up the life performance lifespan of the leathers very well, and simply. He was coming from a (knowledgeable and experienced) downhill oriented perspective.

Regarding the rand: I have never skied a welted leather with a rand, but have skied a number of tele oriented leathers (all subject to the beak Down syndrome lowangle al describes); but I have skied the old Merrell Fusions; a molded sole with a rand, which had way more power than it's appearance would suggest. I can't help but think a rand on a Norwegian welted boot would indeed enhance the sole/upper interface and add downhill performance (lessening lateral torque and increasing the effect of ankle angulation). Just my 02 cents.

I'm a bit confused by this thread-

Isn't this a rand vs no-rand question (as opposed to welted sole vs rand)?
There are many welted-sole boots with full rands- inculding the well-known Alico Ski March-
another example: Regardless- yes- my experience is that- with a full leather boot- a full-wrap rand does increase the rigidity of the boot at the interface of the sole and the leather upper- makes a big difference in my limited experience.

In my limited experience, there are both durability/longevity and repairability advatanges to a welted sole construction vs a simply glued construction.

The optional stiffness of midsole layers is not exclusive to welted soles.

To add- I am not aware of any performance advantages to welted vs not...