longtime lurker requesting ski advice

[chione]

Hi all, I've been reading this forum for 9 years or so and am finally making an account to ask this question.

My backcountry touring setup is not working and I'd like suggestions for what to try next. I have a heavy setup for backcountry turns, and track skis for groomed areas, so what I'm missing is how to make my life pleasant when touring on ungroomed trails and dirt roads, with a few turns here and there.

I live in Colorado. I currently ski on old Fischer S Bound Outtabounds Wax, 88/68/78, 169 N575. I've used these for years, with 3-pin bindings and Alpina Alaska boots (boots are great). I'm about 125 pounds, which I mention because I wonder if I'm on the wrong skis for my weight.

My first problem is that I just can't get good grip on these skis. Maybe I'm waxing wrong, but I've experimented a lot with waxing over the years. If I'm getting enough grip to avoid slipping backward, then I get lots of snow clumping. If I don't get snow sticking to the wax then I'm sliding around and can't kick and glide.

My other complication is that when I'm not skiing solo I'm pulling 100+ pounds of sled plus kids plus assorted crap. Then my grip problems are a nightmare. I've gotten full-length skins for traction when pulling the sled.

I'm wondering what to try next. Right now I'm looking at end-of-season sale skis and wondering if I should try a different setup. Maybe I don't have the right skis or camber for my weight? Maybe I'm incompetent at waxing and should switch to waxless? Although on the rare occasions when the wax works for me on these skis, I love it. Maybe the Asnes with integrated kicker skins would be more versatile?

I've learned a lot from all of you over the years. I'd appreciate your suggestions.

[Woodserson]

Well...

The Outtabounds are a pretty classic ski in many respects. They are classic because they are so great, but they are classic in dimensions and camber. I have a pair (actually, 2 pairs, one for sale if anyone wants a pair lemme know), and they are a big straight double-cambered ski designed for long straight powerful backcountry kick&glide with some turning thrown in. I am 155-160lbs on the 189cm and if I'm going to turn these guys I have to mash them down into the basement. I skied them for a season across New England with leather pins and when I went to another ski that was more downhill oriented I realized how hard I had been working. I'd venture that your weight is appropriate for the 169cm, but again, they demand a more perfect technique.

Of skis of this era the Fischer Boundless was/is much less cambered, less springy, with a bit more shape, and is far more user friendly on the downhill. I love mine. So nice. But good luck finding this gem of a ski (thanks to Phoenix for mine!).

So you can either work on your technique, both waxing and turning, or you can look for another ski.

I don't know what to tell you. If I was in CO with ample dry consistent cold snow I'd stay with a wax ski. There are a lot of decent skis out there in this category. It depends on your budget and how important turns are versus traveling. The Asnes skinlock system is legit-good with several different skins to choose from for today's conditions. Mohair of varying thickness to nylon for climbing up vertical walls. They are pricey but worth it. Ingstad? FT62? The first good for traveling in loose snow with decent turning ability for a XC ski, or the FT62 which is less XC but more turn-ey and fun.

You could even go with something more AT oriented that you find used for cheap at Play It Again sports or something, a friend just found an old pair of Dynafit Cho Oyu's and put Voile 3pin on them and they are awesome, low camber so good grip with grip wax, not great glide because not super cambered but they are easy turning and light.

If you're towing 100lbs behind you, you're going to need full skins pretty much on anything, especially if there are hills. So it goes.

See youtube for waxing tutorials or the wiki on this forum for good waxing threads.

[connyro]

If you were to go the scales route, you may want to look at Voile Objective BCs. Voile scales are surprisingly grippy across a broad range of snow conditions.

[Tom M]

Your current ski at 169 cm sounds about right for what Fischer recommends for your weight. My wife is currently skiing the Fischer Excursion 88 at 169 cm as her off trail, forest service road setup. She weighs around 130 lbs with gear. The Excursion 88's have the same sidecut profile as your skis, but I don't know if there is any differences in the camber or tip. Its been my experience that Fischer tends to rebrand their skis every few years, with a new name, new top sheet, and different nomenclature describing the skis. Truth is, not much has really changed in 10 years but marketing, so I'm guessing that the big difference between your skis and the Excursion 88's are the fish scale pattern and the cutout for Fischer's Easy Skin. She is very happy with the grip and glide of her 88's and has used the Easy skin a few times for uphill climbs when the pattern just wasn't doing the job. She also has a full skin, but I think I've only seen her put them on once this season. I'm a fairly recent convert to "waxless" skis for off trail use. I hate the term "waxless", because I glide wax my "waxless" skis before each outing. I've owned many different sets of waxable skis over the years and I still use waxable skis for track skiing, but I finally gave away my last pair of waxable off trail skis last year. I'm more than happy in the backcountry on waxless. I'm more than willing to give up a little glide and put up with the pattern noise as opposed to having to tweak my wax 2 or 3 times per ski outing as conditions and temperature changes.

[Woodserson]

The Excursion 88's have the same sidecut profile as your skis, but I don't know if there is any differences in the camber or tip. Its been my experience that Fischer tends to rebrand their skis every few years, with a new name, new top sheet, and different nomenclature describing the skis. Truth is, not much has really changed in 10 years but marketing, so I'm guessing that the big difference between your skis and the Excursion 88's are the fish scale pattern and the cutout for Fischer's Easy Skin.

The Outtabounds are traditional camber from shovel to tail. The non-wax version had the negative scaled pattern which wasn't the greatest.

The Sbound-88/Excursion 88 have nordic rocker in the shovel and they are incrementally softer in the flex. There is no wax version of this ski anymore, only crown. The scaled pattern is now the Offtrack Crown which is much better.

[chione]

Thanks all for the feedback. It sounds like these skis work great for lots of people, so I don't know what my problem is. Could be technique or waxing problems, I don't know.

Last night we got a foot of new snow so I went out for a ski this morning. I read LilCliffy's waxing tutorial and thought I would try out a version of it. The air temperature was 30 deg F, snow temperature 32 deg F. I put Swix V20 green all along the ski, and blue extra (V40) in the wax pocket. Based on the temperature I should have used violet special (V45), but I have been using a colder wax because of my clumping problems.

Result: for the whole hour and half I got massive clumps of snow along my entire skis. I had to stop every 10 minutes or so to scrape off the snow. This is my usual experience. I don't know if it's bad waxing or what. What would you try next?

I'm going to get some other skis just to have another option. I'm currently trying to choose between the Asnes Amundsen (recommended for pulling gear) and Gamme. Which way would you go?

[lowangle al]

Don't give up on the waxing. Fresh snow at those temps is hard to get right, especially with the spring sun. A couple days later with the same temps and you may have had good results.

[phoenix]

Like Al just said, the temperature and conditions right around freezing are very difficult to wax for, for anyone on any ski; especially if the snow hasn't yet all consolidated. This is territory where a waxless ski makes life better. That said, for the other 150 or so days of the season in Colorado, your conditions are probably prime for a waxable, and untracked dry snow, particularly if there's any depth, is not optimal for waxless.

As far as getting no grip with the Fischer's, my guess is they're too highly cambered for you. You're on the recommended length, but Fischer's (older ones; I haven't messed with any for about 10 years) tended to run stiff. For regular days, try waxing full length with you color du jour; a couple coats thin and smooth, then a final coat a little thicker, and not necessarily glossy smooth (if you haven't been waxing full length, this'll make a noticeable difference).

I'm 5'6" and 125, and find my Objective BC's camber perfect. I'm on 164's; they feel a little short for me, being used to longer skis, and I'd love to have the 171's, or thereabouts. Talked to the folks at Voile and they said I'd be good on that length too. Also would love to have a pair of waxables, and would definitely want those out your way.I went for the waxless - first waxless I've ever bought, in 45 years of freewheeling - because we just get so many days of funky conditions here in Vermont. They are exceptional performers for a waxless, changed my view of the species.

Never tried the Asnes, but would trust the glowing reports here, as well as knowing their quality and heritage from back in the day (used to sell 'm, and skied a couple of their BC'ish skis in the 80's). Looked at some Fischer's when I bought my Voile's a couple years ago; I'm just not a Fischer guy myself, with all due respect... they make a good ski, just not my cup of tea.

[fgd135]

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The air temperature was 30 deg F, snow temperature 32 deg F. I put Swix V20 green all along the ski, and blue extra (V40) in the wax pocket.
Result: for the whole hour and half I got massive clumps of snow along my entire skis. I had to stop every 10 minutes or so to scrape off the snow. This is my usual experience. I don't know if it's bad waxing or what. What would you try next?

Spring conditions are tough to wax. A few things come to mind--first, thin, a completely smoothed, corked,wax, free of clumping works best, esp in wet heavy snow. I personally would've not have used a base wax along the whole ski in these conditions unless it was a glide wax only, not a kick wax, and ironed in and scraped at that.
Secondly, did you cork in the grip wax? Thin layers, well corked in, seem to work best for me. Adding add'l layers is better than a thick layer.
One more thought, in similar wet heavy springtime Colorado conditions, of which I'm very familiar, I would've probably used a Swix universal klister instead of any hard wax. Apply a thin(!) bead, length-wise on each side of the tracking groove, in the wax pocket only, then spread it very thinly with a klister paddle or scraper, along the full width of the wax pocket.
If you aren't getting enough grip, then add a little more to the length of the wax pocket until you get what you need. (you can't always get what you want.)
Klister is incredibly easy to clean up--just sprinkle talcum powder on it, and scrap it off. I once skied the old Commando Run (Vail Pass to Vail)on a warm spring day using klister for most of the tour.

It sounds to me like your skis are pretty stiff, too, so I'd consider a softer flexing ski. Fwiw, having a cheap set of waxless skis for these wet heavy snows avoids the pitfalls of waxing in those conditions...

[Rodbelan]

It is good to consider air & snow temperature—around 30-32˚F or 0˚C... But what is very critical is the type of snow; I bet you had some new snow when you went out, that is why you had snow consolidation under your wax pocket. That is one of the trickiest condition in spring: new snow, warm air, sun, over some old transformed snow. Even scales get real sticky... But I am really asking myself why would a blue special coat stick like that in these conditions? Hum... Anyway, I wouldn't blame the ski...