Nnnbc magnum bindings on wide skis???

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Baaahb
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Location: Teton Valley
Ski style: free heel, touring to turning
Favorite Skis: Boundless, Rossy BC-125, Jaks, BD Converts......
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Occupation: Retired

Re: Nnnbc magnum bindings on wide skis???

Post by Baaahb » Sat Feb 01, 2020 9:03 pm

Johnny wrote:
Sat Feb 01, 2020 5:39 pm
I LOVE NTN! ♥
In fact, I love every single flavors of free-heel skiing... Each of them have different feelings and different fun factors and rewards...
Sweet! One could pick bones with how you slice the pie, but solid filling.

My fishscale tours usually involve some of #3 and #4 and maybe a little #1.

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Baaahb
Posts: 47
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Location: Teton Valley
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Favorite boots: Alicos, Excursions, T-1's
Occupation: Retired

Re: Nnnbc magnum bindings on wide skis???

Post by Baaahb » Sat Feb 01, 2020 9:12 pm

Lo-Fi wrote:
Sat Feb 01, 2020 6:25 pm
Having a light, nimble and tactile system that you can cover distance on and seamlessly tackle any uphill or downhill on, relying largely on finesse, is exhilarating. Invincible!
Awesome description of how I feel.

IMO you can ski a very wide ski with light bindings. I have had more fun with my Rossy 125's since changing them from a plastic boot/cable binding ski to a 3 pin/leather boot ski. Of course you don't have the same control, and don't use them for the same missions...they are now an xcd ski rather than a "normal telemark" ski, but they are wonderful for dealing with a variety of snow conditions, floating in soft snow much better than a narrower ski would, and not being much slower nor feeling less nimble than a narrower ski on firmer pack.

The weight and feel of a ski is more important than width to its use with a light binding.

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BCgee
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Re: Nnnbc magnum bindings on wide skis???

Post by BCgee » Sun Feb 02, 2020 12:30 am

Different strokes for different folks.

Current rig for carrying the 1yr old in the Deuter kid pack and meadow skipping in Montana:
D4311D9E-0650-431D-9B39-E3A8F111528E.jpeg

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Johnny
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Re: Nnnbc magnum bindings on wide skis???

Post by Johnny » Sun Feb 02, 2020 3:28 am

Lo-Fi wrote:
Sat Feb 01, 2020 6:25 pm
Hey, whoa les moteurs, Johnny!
Mes moteurs roulent toujours à plein gaz lorsqu'il s'agit de preserver et de proteger la precieuse sainteté du ski de fond par-en-bas... 8-)
Just to stir it up, I'd also throw out there, that as efficient as an NNN BC system is for K&G within an XCD context, a 3-pin duckbilled Norwegian welted sole, still feels the most organically satisfying for smearing out telemark turns.

While I once felt this way too, my opinion is now the complete opposite... ;)
Meanwhile, I love squeezing the most hard-cranking turnity turns I can out of the nearby, nearly impossible and improbable bushy, bumpy, eastern-crusty terrain that I am blessed/cursed to have available. For that, in my (falsely) humble opinion, the Excursions, Hardwires and Koms are exquisitely matched!
I fully agree here... XCD gear is totally useless under these conditions. While some move to different tools for this, my philosophy is simple: If the snow is bad, go ski elsewhere! Life is too short to ski bad snow or being strangled by cables... 8-)
phoenix wrote:
Sat Feb 01, 2020 6:46 pm
Meanwhile, "It doesn't matter the places you choose or the tools you use, it's all skiing". RIP, Allan Bard.
Exactly. Some tools (and places) are just more fun and more rewarding than others... ;)
Sweet! One could pick bones with how you slice the pie, but solid filling.
All slices are super sweet and fruity...
Except the XCD slice has a bean in it. A lucky charm, making you an unknown king for a day... 8-)
BCgee wrote:
Sun Feb 02, 2020 12:30 am
Current rig for carrying the 1yr old in the Deuter kid pack and meadow skipping in Montana:
Nice! Better not scratch this last incarnation of the Annums... They might become collectible soon...!
/...\ Peace, Love, Telemark and Tofu /...\
- Never trust a guy who recommends T4s and pins
"And if you like to risk your neck, we'll boom down Sutton in old Quebec..."

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lowangle al
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Re: Nnnbc magnum bindings on wide skis???

Post by lowangle al » Sun Feb 02, 2020 8:27 pm

Getting back to Lo-Fis video. The slop in the light system makes it much more likely that a ski can get deflected by bad snow or whatever and can lead to a crash. I haven't crashed at speed in a long time and the times I've come close I was on light gear. With light gear you need to be a master of the "great save" before you become an expert AND afterward as well.

Like Johnny said if the snow isn't good, find somewhere else to ski. He's lucky to have that option, not all of us do and use heavier gear. That's why I usually recommend heavier gear to beginners looking for advice. For one, it's probably there only rig, and second they may not know what is and what isn't skiable on light gear.

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lilcliffy
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Re: Nnnbc magnum bindings on wide skis???

Post by lilcliffy » Sun Feb 02, 2020 8:47 pm

Lo-Fi wrote:
Tue Jan 28, 2020 6:35 pm
lilcliffy wrote:
Mon Jan 27, 2020 1:35 pm
Lo-Fi wrote:
Sat Jan 25, 2020 10:57 am
I'm feeling like the 78mm waisted ski is getting to the upper end of what NNN BC is optimized for.
Hey Lo-Fi-
Do you think this is a limit of the binding or a limit of the boot?
I don't know if we can extrapolate from this:

Image

Image

Maybe... 30% binding, 70% boot(?)
Hmmm...
First of all great videos- thank you for taking the time to do this-

This is a great comparison for the huge difference in stability and leverage between a modern Telemark boot-binding and a BC-XC boot-binding.

I would like to point out that the Alaska boot has significant stability and leverage when the boot is in contact with the binding and only begins to bend and twist all over place when the Alaska BC's heel is lifted high and only the toe is engaged with the binding. When making downhill turns there is no reasonable reason for your heel to be that high- and- if it is- it is doing nothing anyway because there is no weight on it.
Cross-country AND down-hill skiing in the backcountry.
Unashamed to be a "cross-country type" and love skiing down-hill.

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lilcliffy
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Occupation: Forestry Professional
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Husband, father, farmer and logger

Re: Nnnbc magnum bindings on wide skis???

Post by lilcliffy » Sun Feb 02, 2020 9:05 pm

jyw5 wrote:
Sat Feb 01, 2020 3:43 pm
I personally haven't found a difference between the magnum and regular NNN BC bindings. But I'm also only 145lbs. Maybe weight may make a difference?? I have regular NNN BC bindings now mounted on S112 (78mm underfoot) and FT62. They are both amazing in different ways. I don't think I would go wider than 78mm either. The Fischer OTX boots are extremely comfortable and warm but durability is terrible. I have a pair that are almost done (only part time use for less than 2 seasons).

Now if my Alfa Guards ever get here from Sportalbert, I will be happy...been waiting since January 6th...getting a little worried.
There is no difference in performance between the standard 58mm NNNBC plate and the 68mm Magnum- you are pressuring the sole of the boot- the width of the binding does not change the physics.

I do think the extra width of the binding plate on the Magnum reduces stress on the binding mechanism and I would recommend it for downhill skiing for that reason.

The Magnum has a wider binding lever too which makes it a bit easier to operate with a mitt on in very cold weather- not a deal breaker.

If you are enjoying the S-112 and the FT62 with a boot as soft as the OTX boots then the Guard Advance is going to blow your mind!!!

I think whether 78mm is the width limit depends on a lot of things- including the snow qualities- the boot qualities- and perhaps most importantly skills and technique.

Lo-Fi's Alaska BC-NNNBC vs Excursion-hardwire videos clearly demonstrate what you can and cannot do with a BC-XC boot and binding.

Ski width and flotation are not everything either.

The widest ski that I have mounted to NNNBC is my 78mm Annum- I love it-
But I am discovering I prefer my Falketind 62- with NNNBC- even in deep soft snow...
The 78mm Annum does float higher in the snow column, but the FT62 has a more stable flex.
And when the terrain and snow are such that I want to be able to drive my ski a bit harder- I can easily do that with the 62mm FT62 with a XC boot.

Looking forward to hearing what you think of the Guard Advance! It is my favourite BC-XC boot.
Cross-country AND down-hill skiing in the backcountry.
Unashamed to be a "cross-country type" and love skiing down-hill.

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lilcliffy
Posts: 2482
Joined: Thu Jan 01, 2015 7:20 pm
Location: Stanley, New Brunswick, Canada
Ski style: Nordic backcountry touring
Favorite Skis: Asnes Ingstad BC; Asnes Gamme 54 BC; Asnes Falketind 62;Asnes Storetind Carbon
Favorite boots: Alfa Guard Advance BC; Alpina Alaska BC; Scarpa T4
Occupation: Forestry Professional
Instructor at Maritime College of Forest Technology
Husband, father, farmer and logger

Re: Nnnbc magnum bindings on wide skis???

Post by lilcliffy » Sun Feb 02, 2020 9:28 pm

Lo-Fi wrote:
Sat Feb 01, 2020 6:25 pm
I just posted the above comparison in reference to what type and width of ski that NNN BC is optimized for. I love my 78mm waisted Guide skis, and my 98mm waisted Koms. I'm just not sure the Koms are the most appropriate XCD match to the Magnums and Alaskas.
I have a 162cm Kom- I have never tried it with a BC-XC boot- would be interested in trying it I guess- but not for any serious downhill skiing. I love the Kom with my T4. But- I like my FT62 with a BC-XC boot just as much downhill...And I like the FT62 MUCH better than the Kom as a XC ski...
Just to stir it up, I'd also throw out there, that as efficient as an NNN BC system is for K&G within an XCD context, a 3-pin duckbilled Norwegian welted sole, still feels the most organically satisfying for smearing out telemark turns.
If this is true- is this not more a comment about a boot than the limitations of the binding?
Personally- at the light end of the BC-XC end of the spectrum I get much more stability and leverage from my NNNBC boots and the NNNBC binding than I do with their 3-pin boot equivalents. For example- I much prefer the Alaska BC than Alaska 75 for XCD touring. And I much prefer my Alaska BC/Guard Advance BC for XCD touring than a heavy welted leather boot. I haven't weighed them- but I bet you my T4 weighs less than my welted Ski March boot!
I recently tested the Ingstad BC mounted to a Supertelemark binding- with Crispi Lofoten 75 boot- back-to-back against my Ingstad BC mounted to NNNBC-Magnum with Alfa Guard Advance- and the NNNBC setup was much more stable and I had more control over the ski.

Tom's video of 3-pin vs NNNBC clearly demonstrates this (Tom- please let me know if you mind me referencing your video):

Meanwhile, I love squeezing the most hard-cranking turnity turns I can out of the nearby, nearly impossible and improbable bushy, bumpy, eastern-crusty terrain that I am blessed/cursed to have available. For that, in my (falsely) humble opinion, the Excursions, Hardwires and Koms are exquisitely matched!
My day-to-day preference for NNNBC may well be a product of my good soft and stable snow conditions...
....................
At the other end of the spectrum-
Lo-Fi-
It would be interesting for you to test all of this from the other end of the spectrum and try a BC-XC NNNBC boot with a narrow downhill-oriented ski...
Isn't the reason you need the power of the Excursion-hardwire because the Kom is so wide and heavy?
Sorry- I guess I am kind of undermining the question of the OP-
But is the question about how wide to go with NNNBC- or the question how wide to go with a XC boot?
Cross-country AND down-hill skiing in the backcountry.
Unashamed to be a "cross-country type" and love skiing down-hill.

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Baaahb
Posts: 47
Joined: Thu Dec 26, 2013 12:03 pm
Location: Teton Valley
Ski style: free heel, touring to turning
Favorite Skis: Boundless, Rossy BC-125, Jaks, BD Converts......
Favorite boots: Alicos, Excursions, T-1's
Occupation: Retired

Re: Nnnbc magnum bindings on wide skis???

Post by Baaahb » Mon Feb 03, 2020 11:57 am

lilcliffy wrote:
Sun Feb 02, 2020 9:05 pm

The 78mm Annum does float higher in the snow column, but the FT62 has a more stable flex.
What do you mean by more stable flex? My undestanding is that skinny skis have evolved fairly recently to have significantly more flex in the tips to make quicker turning easier. True?

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Johnny
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Re: Nnnbc magnum bindings on wide skis???

Post by Johnny » Mon Feb 03, 2020 12:55 pm

lilcliffy wrote:
Sun Feb 02, 2020 8:47 pm
I would like to point out that the Alaska boot has significant stability and leverage when the boot is in contact with the binding and only begins to bend and twist all over place when the Alaska BC's heel is lifted high and only the toe is engaged with the binding. When making downhill turns there is no reasonable reason for your heel to be that high- and if it is it is doing nothing anyway because there is no weight on it.
Exactly. Locking the rails with BOF is the secret of NNN-BC, which not a lot of people seem to understand... And that is another reason why Lo-Fi's NNN GIF with tippy toes, while being very cool, is not relevant here... ;)

And this is also the reason why unlike 75mm, you need a pretty good technique to ride NNN-BC downhill... But once acquired, the reward is incomparable. Think about it, if NNN-BC was not designed as a downhill bindings as most people think, there wouldn't be any rails on them...

Same old story... Heavier and more aggressive gear instead of finesse and grace... The story of humanity...
Definitely not my way of solving problems... Whether for XCD or other spheres of life... 8-)

Peace out
/...\ Peace, Love, Telemark and Tofu /...\
- Never trust a guy who recommends T4s and pins
"And if you like to risk your neck, we'll boom down Sutton in old Quebec..."

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