edge tuning equipment

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slyfink
Posts: 1
Joined: Thu Dec 15, 2016 4:12 pm

edge tuning equipment

Post by slyfink » Mon Jan 30, 2017 11:37 am

Hey everyone,

I'll start by saying it feels weird to be posting here, I'm very confused about what happened to the "old" tele talk, and if some of the previous regulars are still on here... I haven't been on a ski forum since the old one shut down, it feels like I'm talking to Lazarus...

Anyways, I'm glad this forum is back, and here's my question:

I want to take care of the basic tuning for my skis myself: waxing and edges. I'm pretty comfortable with waxing, but I'm not really sure what to do about edges.

About me: I'm an east coast skier (220lbs, solid intermediate-level skier), and tele mostly at resorts. I'm on G3 Rapid Transits (so relatively wide for east coast skis) and on NTN (I was an early adopter, in fact, I've been on them since the very beginning and OG orange TX debacle).

My question: I have a plastic doohicky that has an 88°bevel, and a 90°bevel and my file slots into it. The thing is, it's broken and the file wobbles a bit. and besides, I never really knew whether to use the 88° or 90° setting. I'm looking to replace it with a fixed edge guide, but don't know whether to buy a 90° or 88°. I think I should be getting the 88° one, but I'm not sure. And to be honest, I don't really feel like I'd get a knowledgeable answer from my local ski shops.

The other part of the question is how to you file the bottom part? From what I gather, you "freehand'" it with a file? That seems pretty random and susceptible to lots of variation and user error... and the fact that the file would rub against the ski base which doesn't seem good either. Any tips on how to do that would be great...

Thanks in advance for any advice...

slyfink

MikeK

Re: edge tuning equipment

Post by MikeK » Mon Jan 30, 2017 12:19 pm

For the base edge you use this:

http://www.artechski.com/swix-base-edge ... Aixu8P8HAQ

You can get adjustable ones but they seem a bit hokey. No idea how repeatable they might be. This, at least, gives you a fighting chance.

Just really learned about edge tuning recently from a friend but there is a fair deal of info on the net. Some of it seems a bit confusing until you actually get your hands on the tools, then it's really, really easy.

You'd probably want to keep your side edge at 88, that's pretty common. I used this fixture and it was pretty nice:

Image

As far as base - I used what he had, a 0.75. I don't know that it matters much but I think 1 is more common.

Then you need some files.

Definitely consider a panzer file. That thing will remove some material and get your edges where they need to be for sharpening. Just be aware that you should remove any hard spots with a stone as it will dull the file or the file will skip right over them.

Then a bastard mill. And really to do it right a couple diamond stones of different grit. You could probably get away with just one and get 90% of the benefit of polishing. The stuff I used had two diamond stone and one ceramic, and man it does a nice job. Those things are polished and sharp.

I always had shops sharpen for me previously and I don't think they do all that, but I'm told it's worth the work because your edges stay sharper longer. Then subsequent tunings you should just need to touch up with the diamond and ceramic stones. You really only need the metal files for setting angles and removing a bit amount of material i.e. new skis, changing angles or removing rock damage.

The one other thing that would be nice to have that I didn't have available was a sidewall planer. I was able to do a decent job without it but if you are doing a new pair you may need to push the sidewall back a bit, or if you need to remove a lot of material to get a ding out.

Hope that helps and makes sense....



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Harris
Posts: 331
Joined: Wed Feb 24, 2016 4:08 pm

Re: edge tuning equipment

Post by Harris » Mon Jan 30, 2017 12:34 pm

Mike has a good advise above. You might also check out "Beast" ski tuning equipment. You can find them online. I bought my setup from "The Race Place." Beast makes different degree file holders for both the base side of the edge and the sidewall side. Generally a 1 degree base edge bevel and 1 degree side edge bevel are common. It sounds like you have already beveled your sidewall edges to at least 1 degree. If so you may not need the planer tool, which cuts back the plastic right above the edge to allow the file to contact said edge at a less than 90 degree angle. As for edge angles: GS and downhill racers will get into more heavy bevels. But to answer your post more directly, yes, there are base edge file guides to use that are preferable to doing it freehand. Also carry a gummy stone with you after you tune edges so you can detune if necessary on the slopes. If you ski with rockered skis you might find that sharpening past the effective edges, meaning sharpening past the rocker start points beyond the camber will result in a very grabby ski, especially seen when alpine turning on groomers as the turn is finishing (chatter); the ski at max edge will have the tips and tails trying to hook up but not be able to hold and then will abruptly and floppily release. And lastly, edge tuning with the right equipment is stupid simple; it only takes a couple minutes, the shop has no special secret to it. Just don't make the mistake of over filing. A little goes a long way, and a fresh file cuts metal down quick. Debur with a diamond stone. Hope that helps.
Last edited by Harris on Mon Jan 30, 2017 12:41 pm, edited 1 time in total.



MikeK

Re: edge tuning equipment

Post by MikeK » Mon Jan 30, 2017 12:39 pm

I think out here in the ice fields what I hear is 88 is more preferable because it gives you that acute point to really slice the ice. The tradeoff is durability - the strongest edge has a 90 between base and edge. So yeah, 89/1 gives more of that bite with a more durable edge. 88/1 gives you the better ice slicing.

I guess 1 is pretty recreational or for high speed cruising, whereas 0.5 on the base is more for slalom type skiers who want the maximum quickness edge to edge. 0.75 is a compromise of those two... correct me if I'm wrong, but I think that was the idea. I'm not a ski racer :oops:



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Harris
Posts: 331
Joined: Wed Feb 24, 2016 4:08 pm

Re: edge tuning equipment

Post by Harris » Mon Jan 30, 2017 12:43 pm

Mike K: I think you know your ice better than me. I'm on the West coast. Sounds like solid advice.



MikeK

Re: edge tuning equipment

Post by MikeK » Mon Jan 30, 2017 12:47 pm

Everything I know is based on friends who have sons or daughters in ski racing...



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Harris
Posts: 331
Joined: Wed Feb 24, 2016 4:08 pm

Re: edge tuning equipment

Post by Harris » Mon Jan 30, 2017 12:55 pm

Yeah, my Mainer nephew just started after school race club. We'll be getting into all that race edging shortly. I( hear they groom with a zamboni out in your parts. And that is why all the best racers seem to come from the East.



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TomH
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Re: edge tuning equipment

Post by TomH » Mon Jan 30, 2017 1:04 pm

1 degree off base/1 degree off side (89) is always a decent place to start, and you'll keep the edge sharp longer with a 90-degree total. That being said, you'll get a sharper edge the farther acute you go, but it will tend to dull faster. Shallower angles off the base (i.e. 0.5) will get you onto edge quicker. Make sure you put at least a little angle off base, or you'll make the skis real squirrelly on hard pack.

If it's primarily a soft-snow ski, I'd run 1/1. If it'll see a bit of hard-pack/groomer service, I like running 0.5 base and 2-3 degrees off the sidewall.

For sharpening, you should be only doing the base edge minimally (do the initial set), then focus on maintaining the side edge after that to avoid taking out too much edge and removing base material. Depending on the file holder, you can set the file up on some where it'll contact mainly just the edge and not take too much base material with it. If you take the base edges down too far, eventually you'll need a stone grind to get everything leveled out again.

Regarding file types, I like to avoid panzers unless I have a really mangled edge that needs a bit of material removed to get it back. I would not keep them in the rotation for normal sharpening as you can burn through edges pretty quick if you use them frequently. The bastard files do nicely for setting up the edges, and if you're not too finicky, you can easily stop there with a very sharp edge. Otherwise, the diamonds really hone them up after the bastard and will help the edge stick around.



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dnt_upton
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Re: edge tuning equipment

Post by dnt_upton » Mon Jan 30, 2017 3:08 pm

I basically follow TomH's advice.

I keep it pretty simple. 1/1 for edge and base, and I like SVST's simple edge tools. I use diamond stones (200 and 400) for very basic tuning. And I use a gummi stone for deburring and/or removing rust. I don't race (except against my own kids), I try to avoid groomers, and I tune maybe once per season.

I use a Panzer file only for detuning tips/tails.

ETA: the old ttips regulars are divided among TGR, Backcountrytalk, and here. Some vanished back to the real world.



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