Gear, technique, or conditions? Difficulties with uphill travel on waxless skis

[Jlars13]

Hi everyone- very new to xcd but quickly falling in love with the sport. My big question is about how to not slip backwards during uphill travel on xcd gear and whether it’s my technique, the conditions, or my setup that’s making it difficult. Right now I’m on this year’s Madshus m68 skis with nnn BC bindings and alpina Alaskas. I’ve had a great time tooling around on snowshoe/hiking/xc trails but recently discovered the joy of telemark turns and am working on my downhill skills. Yesterday, my gf, who is on AT gear, and I went out to do a very light tour (alpine trail from summit pass to timberline lodge, for anyone near the Portland area), and while we had a great time, I had trouble with losing my grip and slipping backwards on the uphills. The snow was a mix of wet snow, groomed hard pack, and a few patches of ice. I seemed to slip at different times on all these conditions and at different steepnesses (the trail is not too steep, it’s like….a blue run at its steepest, though it is narrow). When the terrain got a little more even, I could K&G past my gf, but as soon as it got even moderately steep again, I found myself falling waaay behind, doing little short shuffles and stomping my heels to compress the camber and wishing I had skins. I was also rocking these cheap MSR multipurpose poles which were slipping out of the snow, going to return these and get some kompardelles with a nordic basket.

My question then, is this: for light touring like this, is the solution 1. To buy skins (if any fit these skis? I’m very new to this) and take them out if conditions are like they were yesterday 2. Just work on my uphill technique (which I should probably do anyways), and find some good resources for learning or 3. If I’m going to be doing more touring, consider a burlier setup. (Scarpa T2/T4, voile switchback, and Asnes/Voile skis seem to be highly recommended here - although being so new, I feel like I need a lot more time on these skis and to get the muscle memory down for quick telemark turns before it makes sense to go out buying beefier gear.)

Apologies for the essay, thanks in advance for any and all advice!

[CwmRaider]

Unfortunately I am unfamiliar with the waxless pattern of the Madshus M68.

The most straightforward way to keep up with your girlfriend on the uphills if you're losing grip is to use skins. As the M68 do not have mounting point for short skins, a good option may be full length skins. I have seen them as narrow as 45 mm, but it is probably ok to get them up to 60mm wide. Expect to lose a lot of glide.
Alternatively you could consider waxing for grip in front of the patterned zone, eg. add 20cm of wax lengthwise. This probably works best below freezing (Swix Blue Extra and colder temps) as the waxes are harder and IF you reach the limit of grip again you can just stick the skin straight over the wax. Warmer waxes will adhere to skin glue more than the skis.

Regarding technique, the way to get more grip is to increase the downwards pressure on each kick, and ski very active. It is more tiring as well. While this is a fine remedy on shorter tours, on longer tours energy management is important and losing grip when you're getting tired sucks.

[Telerock]

You didnt say what you had for poles, but the upper body push can help, if the poles are long enough and have a big basket. I find the spring of fiberglass better than aluminum poles for up hill.
Safety note for newbies; do Not use the straps on the way down; better to lose a stuck pole then pull out your shoulder.
Happy trails!

[stilltryin]

No new gear; new gf!
Seriously though, the largest part of the issue here is probably the mismatch between gear. Scales are not intended to be comparable to skins. You could get skins, but then that sort of defeats the purpose of XCD. You could get skins just for when you are out with people with skins, go skinless when alone or with others who are skinless.
(I guess there is a possibility that you are lighter in weight than recommended for the length of the ski, which would make it harder to get the scales in contact with the snow.)
An aside: personally I don't think it is that important to master tele on the m68 vs. a more downhill oriented ski.

[fisheater]

NNN-BC isn’t the free pivot that an AT binding is, but it isn’t bad. BD makes a kicker skin that you could use on your ski.
https://www.blackdiamondequipment.com/e ... cker-50mm/
They should suffice for what you’re climbing, however for the up blue is starting to get steep. I’m from Michigan, that may explain things.
If you use polar (Swix white) on the entire base including the scales, you will have better grip. You’re still getting steep, especially with ice.
If you can handle the down, those skis should get you up.

[Jlars13]

You didnt say what you had for poles, but the upper body push can help, if the poles are long enough and have a big basket. I find the spring of fiberglass better than aluminum poles for up hill.
Safety note for newbies; do Not use the straps on the way down; better to lose a stuck pole then pull out your shoulder.
Happy trails!

Thank you! I had these aluminum MSR poles that did me no favors. The large baskets were pushing the poles out of the snow, weirdly. The poles were slipping a good amount too, which was not nice. Just returned them for some komperdell adjustable “nordic adventure alloy” poles with nordic tips and baskets. I’m a little concerned about the durability of these poles but we’ll see.

[Jlars13]

No new gear; new gf!
Seriously though, the largest part of the issue here is probably the mismatch between gear. Scales are not intended to be comparable to skins. You could get skins, but then that sort of defeats the purpose of XCD. You could get skins just for when you are out with people with skins, go skinless when alone or with others who are skinless.
(I guess there is a possibility that you are lighter in weight than recommended for the length of the ski, which would make it harder to get the scales in contact with the snow.)
An aside: personally I don't think it is that important to master tele on the m68 vs. a more downhill oriented ski.

The weight issue is entirely possible, though could also be possible in the other direction. I’m about 5’9 165lbs and madshus’ size chart for the skis is…..very odd. Instead of a weight range it says “length skier” and as my “skier length” is about 176-177cm, I went with the 192, which roughly matched their chart for “classic” skis, they didn’t have a category for their xcd skis specifically. Also I think REI had like…..this one pair of skis in stock for any bc xc ski for anyone over 120lbs.

[fgd135]

If she's using skins, you should be as well. Losing some glide? yeah, but using full-length skins will give you the desired climbing capability, plus help prevent you from having a massive slip slide and fall while ascending on ice and hard snow conditions.

[Krummholz]

I had a similar issue, 1st tried a technique of adding more downward pressure by planting the ski using more pressure at the ball of the foot. 2nd bought https://www.ebay.com/itm/ASCENSION-NYLO ... 632-2357-0

Took one skin and cut it in half to make two tip skins. Easier to deal with than full skins and skill have plenty of grip. But still can have trouble going straight across a gully when coming up the lip.

[Manney]

You didnt say what you had for poles, but the upper body push can help, if the poles are long enough and have a big basket. I find the spring of fiberglass better than aluminum poles for up hill.

Two very good points.

Here’s a photo of a person posing with one piece waist high poles. Simply cant tour or climb in any sensible manner with poles that short… they’re more the length of DH poles.

Something like a Swix Mountain Expedition pole works much better for touring, climbing. One piece composite shaft. Dual hand grips… one down low for the turns + one up high for tour/climb.

Or an Asnes Polar. Two piece… carbon-Kevlar… but with dual hand grips.

Bottom line… length is needed for touring, climbing. So go adjustable, dual grip, or both.