I know carl's a d-bag and all, but sometimes you guys should wait until he says things you actually disagree with, rather than just trying to parse his shit to argue that he's not actually agreeing with ya'll.
Andrew, thanks also for your contribution in designing and testing the Whippet, it is indeed a great tool for skinning and ski mountaineering with ski crampons.
Oh... now you're dragging the first most worthless piece of gear into the discussion - ski crampons. Would you like a hemp rope or spare ski tip with those sir?
Fine carl, however from the beginning we were talking about skinning on hard snow. Then the next thing I know you are accusing me of "rambling" about something of no relevance.
E.J. Howitt wrote:
ghostofcarl wrote:
if it's steep enough and soft enough for skinning a whippet isn't much use; if it's firm enough for a whippet to work skinning sucks even with ski crampons
I don't get this comment either. There are people who only skin if the snow is soft? What about on a 2 or 3 mile approach in rolling terrain?
Only one thing sucks worse than skinning on hard snow and that's carrying an extra 12 to 15 lbs of weight on your back unnecessarily, especially on multi-day trips where you may already be schlepping 50 lbs or so.
ghostofcarl wrote:
what are you rambling about? what relevance does a 2-3 mile approach on rolling terrain have to a self-arrest pole? What relevance does 12-15 lbs of weight on your back have to either an ice axe or self-arrest grips?
Andrew, thanks also for your contribution in designing and testing the Whippet, it is indeed a great tool for skinning and ski mountaineering with ski crampons.
Oh... now you're dragging the first most worthless piece of gear into the discussion - ski crampons. Would you like a hemp rope or spare ski tip with those sir?
Funny Andrew, but I think it was carl who brought them up first, with regard to skinning hard snow. Must have been something he picked up in Ski Mountaineering 102.
In truth the only time I've found ski crampons to come in handy was while working some sketchy traverses on the Haute Route a few years ago. A Swiss guide that was in our group insisted they were a must-have, and though dubious, I went along and was pretty much glad I did. They've been collecting dust in my garage ever since though.
Oh... now you're dragging the first most worthless piece of gear into the discussion - ski crampons. Would you like a hemp rope or spare ski tip with those sir?
Joined: 09 Apr 2007 Posts: 1479 Location: Valmorel, France
Posted: Wed May 23, 2012 6:57 pm Post subject:
JPL wrote:
AT Apostle wrote:
JPL wrote:
Andrew, thanks also for your contribution in designing and testing the Whippet, it is indeed a great tool for skinning and ski mountaineering with ski crampons.
Oh... now you're dragging the first most worthless piece of gear into the discussion - ski crampons. Would you like a hemp rope or spare ski tip with those sir?
Funny Andrew, but I think it was carl who brought them up first, with regard to skinning hard snow. Must have been something he picked up in Ski Mountaineering 102.
In truth the only time I've found ski crampons to come in handy was while working some sketchy traverses on the Haute Route a few years ago. A Swiss guide that was in our group insisted they were a must-have, and though dubious, I went along and was pretty much glad I did. They've been collecting dust in my garage ever since though.
Ski crampons might not be the most often used piece of gear for mountaineering... but when you are in a situation where you need them, nothing else compares ! _________________ Dré dans l'pentu !!
"Why can't people here be a bit more serious and why are so many posts utterly bs?" (Telesaint)
Last edited by x-eff on Wed May 23, 2012 7:01 pm; edited 1 time in total
Funny Andrew, but I think it was carl who brought them up first, with regard to skinning hard snow. Must have been something he picked up in Ski Mountaineering 102.
Yeah, I said skinning sucks with them JPL.
ghostofcarl wrote:
if it's firm enough for a whippet to work skinning sucks even with ski crampons
You said:
JPL wrote:
Andrew, thanks also for your contribution in designing and testing the Whippet, it is indeed a great tool for skinning and ski mountaineering with ski crampons.
they are nice for icy skin tracks that've been skinned lots of times not so useful elsewhere
EJH- why do you keep mentioning rolling terrain, skinning and whippets?
EJH- why do you keep mentioning rolling terrain, skinning and whippets?
Okay carl, first there was this:
X-Man wrote:
Whippets are the most appropriate tools for skinning.
Then this from you:
ghostofcarl wrote:
I don't get the comment about a Whippet and skinning… if it's steep enough and soft enough for skinning a whippet isn't much use; if it's firm enough for a whippet to work skinning sucks even with ski crampons
The above indicated to me that you don't believe a Whippet to be useful for skinning. I replied:
E.J. Howitt wrote:
There are people who only skin if the snow is soft? What about on a 2 or 3 mile approach in rolling terrain?
Only one thing sucks worse than skinning on hard snow and that's carrying an extra 12 to 15 lbs of weight on your back unnecessarily, especially on multi-day trips where you may already be schlepping 50 lbs or so.
And then you oh so graciously answered:
ghostofcarl wrote:
what are you rambling about? what relevance does a 2-3 mile approach on rolling terrain have to a self-arrest pole? What relevance does 12-15 lbs of weight on your back have to either an ice axe or self-arrest grips?
I replied:
E.J. Howitt wrote:
The point is carl, that for all your bluster, you don't seem to know much about the topic. In practice we, people who actually do this stuff, often skin on hard snow where a Whippet can be handy, and yes it can suck to skin on hard snow, but carrying an extra 15 lbs of skis and bindings on top of the 50 lbs or more needed for a multi-day sucks even worse.
You questioned:
ghostofcarl wrote:
So when you have a 15lb day pack do you put skis on or not?
I answered, and I'll bold the key point:
E.J. Howitt wrote:
It depends. Quite often, this time of year, I will skin the hard snow in the shade and rolling terrain on the approach, counting on the snow in the open bowls to have begun to soften by the time I get there, allowing me to dispense with crampons and ice axe altogether. ATA's Whippet is a great asset on these days.
And don't roll your eyes at me mothercopulater, just because you don't know what you are talking about.
I guess you are having problems with the "rolling terrain" part, but on the hard snow skin approach I typically will have to work my way up a drainage, or sides of a drainage, where even a short slide can carry me into rocks or trees. Later, on the final skin up the destination bowl or other slope, in snow soft enough to skin but firm enough to slide on, the Whippet is again a wonderful asset, absent crampons and an axe.
So I disagree with you and agree with others who have said the Whippet is the most appropriate tool for skinning, and an ice axe most appropriate for cramponing.
So I disagree with you and agree with others who have said the Whippet is the most appropriate tool for skinning, and an ice axe most appropriate for cramponing.
Whippets should only be used for adult novelty purposes in the privacy of your own BC stash.
Joined: 06 Dec 2004 Posts: 3962 Location: casa de sueños
Posted: Wed May 23, 2012 8:56 pm Post subject:
stevesliva wrote:
AT Apostle wrote:
Oh... now you're dragging the first most worthless piece of gear into the discussion - ski crampons. Would you like a hemp rope or spare ski tip with those sir?
So I disagree with you and agree with others who have said the Whippet is the most appropriate tool for skinning, and an ice axe most appropriate for cramponing.
Good for you. Everyone knows there's only one way "real skiers" approach the mountains.
Joined: 01 Mar 2005 Posts: 270 Location: Big Blue Ball
Posted: Wed May 23, 2012 9:19 pm Post subject:
ghostofcarl wrote:
I'm not arguing they (whippets) are "equivalent" and I'm not sure who is other than a strawman.
I've heard ATA called a lot of things, but a strawman? Them's fighting words!
AT Apostle wrote:
JPL wrote:
Andrew, since you are here, let me ask you something, when you invented the things did you ever envision someone using them for front-pointing up a 20 foot cornice at the top of a 3,000 foot couloir?
James wrote:
For a 3,000 foot moderate climb with a 20 foot cornice having a whippet is more practical than an ice axe.
Dave, I did more than envision it, I went out and field tested them myself to be sure of it.
AT Apostle wrote:
Kimo wrote:
AT Apostle wrote:
...if you carry two Whippets, there's no comparison. Your stopping power is instant regardless of what body position you are in.
Better than two ice axes?
For stopping a sliding fall, I think so...
Better than two axes in a sliding fall and perfectly suited for front pointing up an exposed 20 foot cornice!
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