Before I got modern Tele gear I used to do a lot of boot glisaiding for yucks in the summer. I learned early on how to make an instant self arrest. Practice, practice, practice. However I am a bit confused as the application to Whippets.
With an ice ax in hand it was easy to get into the arrest position quickly. With Whippets how do you keep the unused ski pole out of the way. Do you have to remove your non-ax wrist strap and just accept that you likely could loose a pole. How do you get you ax hand into position atop the ax blade? Do you just hold on to the ski grip instead? Will a Whippette really take the force of my 220 lb body when I attempt to pull up on the ax handle to increase braking?
I used to practice all the fall positions with my ax.... head first, feet first, right side and wrong side arrests. With a wippet pactice seems complicated by having an ax handle that it 4 feet long! I own a Whippet, have practiced a bit, and have puzzled much over these question. So far I have been unable to find instructions as to how to deal with these incumbant problems. I am hesitant to just assume I can find an answer on my own, so illuminate me.
Joined: 06 Dec 2004 Posts: 1978 Location: South Lake Tahoe
Posted: Mon May 21, 2012 3:30 am Post subject:
I self arrested in anger with an whippet, just like using an axe, but it was in the summer (boots, not skis or crampons) and I was using only one whippet at the time. When skiing, I use one whippet and one regular pole. On the way up I will often use a one whippet and one axe if I am on crampons. My axe is only 50cm so the whippet is nice on the way up for lower angle stuff. I have never self arrested in anger when using a pole/whippet or axe/whippet, so take that into consideration.
snojones wrote:
Before I got modern Tele gear I used to do a lot of boot glisaiding for yucks in the summer. I learned early on how to make an instant self arrest. Practice, practice, practice. However I am a bit confused as the application to Whippets.
With an ice ax in hand it was easy to get into the arrest position quickly. With Whippets how do you keep the unused ski pole out of the way. Do you have to remove your non-ax wrist strap and just accept that you likely could loose a pole. How do you get you ax hand into position atop the ax blade? Do you just hold on to the ski grip instead? Will a Whippette really take the force of my 220 lb body when I attempt to pull up on the ax handle to increase braking?
I used to practice all the fall positions with my ax.... head first, feet first, right side and wrong side arrests. With a wippet pactice seems complicated by having an ax handle that it 4 feet long! I own a Whippet, have practiced a bit, and have puzzled much over these question. So far I have been unable to find instructions as to how to deal with these incumbant problems. I am hesitant to just assume I can find an answer on my own, so illuminate me.
If your rule is to use minimal tools to discern maximal conditions gc, well that is a novel approach indeed.
If your rule is to use maximal inference into minimal text to discern maximal butthurt that is par for the course here.
There's dozens of threads on this; find what works for you. Some very good skiers use multiple whippets, no whippet or ice axe. Others use different things. There's many ways to skin a cat.
Awesome, let's call this Carl's Rule.
When you don't know much about the subject of the question, and your answer embarrassingly reveals your lack of actual experience and knowledge, quickly default to attacking the community generally (the word butthurt being very handy), question why the topic is even being talked about again, and suggest the answer is fluid anyway.
The OP specifically mentions crampons and asks which self-arrest tool is most appropriate. JPL, dschane and J provided the best, most accurate information.
If you are going to be climbing slopes steep and firm enough to require crampons, and this can occur on even relatively mellow terrain on spring climb/skis where the snow is expected to soften in the warm sun for the descent, an axe is the most appropriate tool. Whippets are the most appropriate tools for skinning.
Yes, there is plenty of crossover in actual use, but crampons are such effective tools that it's really easy to quickly get yourself in over your head with them, past your ability to self-arrest, and that point is reached much faster with whippets than with an axe.
And if you really can't figure out how to safely store an ice-axe on the back of a pack, then maybe you should stick to skiing slopes you can skin until you have time to learn a little more about ski mountaineering.
Joined: 20 Oct 2005 Posts: 17741 Location: following Diogenes, but the ba$tard threw away the lamp so I'm just stumbling along in the dark!
Posted: Mon May 21, 2012 12:25 pm Post subject:
X-man wrote:
If you are going to be climbing slopes steep and firm enough to require crampons, and this can occur on even relatively mellow terrain on spring climb/skis where the snow is expected to soften in the warm sun for the descent, an axe is the most appropriate tool. Whippets are the most appropriate tools for skinning.
Plain and simple truth!
J wrote:
regardless of the tool, if self-arrest is not initiated instantly self-arrest is not likely...simple fact of physics.
.....
tested that theory on soft snow at 40+ degrees. We used ordinary mountain axes..circa 1994.
300 feet of double dry + belay partner> climb up 290+ feet>check knot again>run into glissade> delay arrest until past belay partner> start arrest as late as possible but still manage to avoid coming onto rope.
We always stopped, never getting the rope. We each took three tries, I got the last one, on a by then well packed run, only had a few feet of slack at the stop and it was scary fast. (EDIT TO ADD: Forgot, but just remembered took some glissade air on that last one..breath near knocked out of me with only 150 feet to go before coming onto the rope...damn! Still makes for a shudder, thinking over the "what if?")
Yes it was kinda stupid..getting the rope would have gone some damage.
Trying that at 50 degrees? On a firm surface? No, I don't think so....however, consistent practice can boost the odds in one's favor...
Carry on. _________________ "Moderate is not the new Low" - Chris Joosen, USFS Lead Snow Ranger (Tuckerman Ravine, White Mountains National Forest)
Last edited by robrox on Mon May 21, 2012 6:06 pm; edited 3 times in total
Joined: 24 Jan 2005 Posts: 6983 Location: Castle Rock, CO
Posted: Mon May 21, 2012 1:11 pm Post subject:
While an ice axe would be safer than a whippet so would climbing with a rope on belay but how often do we do that skiing. In some conditions an ice axe would be mandatory for me. In even more a whippet is fine and in even more I don’t need anything. People here are generalizing what you would need without knowing where you are skiing. Someone states the OP is looking for what is most appropriate yet what he asked was is what is most practical. For me in most places a whippet is more practical.
I don’t agree with the comment that if you have on crampons you must have an ice axe or whippet. On less steep slopes that are slightly soft I don’t need to worry about self arrest because if I fell I would not slide anywhere. On some of these type slopes where I am kick stepping up crampons can be a huge energy savor on each step. I am not even a little worried about falling but take a few thousand steps that I don’t have to kick as hard and I will go with the crampons. For me around here half of the ascents I do in May June fit that category and in this case having the whippet in hand just in case is lot more practical than an axe.
I also find myself in a lot couloirs where only the last 50 feet or less are steep enough for me to be worried about falling. I like having the crampons on and the whippet. I can put the whippet fully in the snow like an axe and kick each step firmly and feel confident in what I am doing. I just slow down and take my time and be careful same as if I have no choice on a run out climb. For a 3,000 foot moderate climb with a 20 foot cornice having a whippet is more practical than an ice axe.
While an ice axe would be safer than a whippet so would climbing with a rope on belay...
Safer still would be to just stay home and watch Seinfeld reruns. And yes, we are also talking practicality here, so what's so impractical about carrying an ice axe while using crampons?
While an ice axe would be safer than a whippet so would climbing with a rope on belay...
Safer still would be to just stay home and watch Seinfeld reruns. And yes, we are also talking practicality here, so what's so impractical about carrying an ice axe while using crampons?
If, say, it's an early Sierra morning and you are donning crampons so you have traction on top of the frozen crust instead of having to kicksteps into it ski poles or poles and a whippet allow you to stand upright and move faster.
I realize X-man has declared me an idiot, but I don't get the comment about a Whippet and skinning. aside from a glaicer for self rescue if it's steep enough and soft enough for skinning a whippet isn't much use; if it's firm enough for a whippet to work skinning sucks even with ski crampons
Joined: 24 Jan 2005 Posts: 6983 Location: Castle Rock, CO
Posted: Mon May 21, 2012 9:07 pm Post subject:
This ^^^ although this works for me in Colorado.
I thought I kind of spelled it out in my last post but may be not as clearly because I also never need a whippet while my skins are on.
Bottom line while skiing or kick stepping on slopes under around 45 degrees I think a whippet is always easier to handle then an Ice axe due to its adjustable length and the way you use it as a pole for balance. My ski axe is to short on these type slopes.
There is this black and white line that appears to be drawn for pseudo ski mountaineering here that says you don't need a rope but you always should have ice ace matched with crampons when climbing in the spring. I think drawing black and white lines is stupid in mountaineering. I think sometimes you should probably have a rope, sometimes an axe, sometimes a whippet, sometimes non of the above and yes sometimes you should stay home and watch Seinfeld reruns.
Joined: 09 Dec 2004 Posts: 1566 Location: over the bars
Posted: Tue May 22, 2012 5:35 am Post subject:
my observation is that a lot of "it" is about goals, experience, comfort, complacency, how much gear you feel like you need to own, and how much you feel like you want to carry.
personally, i use two whippets and older sabertooth crampons (steel). it's been a pretty good combo for me, though, the last time they got use, i wished i had an axe for a crux/exposed move. I never consider my whippets to be for arresting a fall while skiing and hope that I never need to try to rely on them for that. i can't stand my whippet poles from a skiing/skinning perspective and prefer my 20 year old scott series 4 WC poles (non-adjustable). if i put crampons in my pack for a trip, then i bring my whippets. i adjust my plans if i find myself heading into a situation where i wished i had my crampons and whippet and left them at home.
i assume people have read the account on tgr from last season of the accident in the tioga pass area related to a slip, slide, fall while skinning a long, steep, and icy slope. it was a close call. useful information can be extracted regarding personal safety between skinning versus booting with pointy stuff.
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took some glissade air on that last one..breath near knocked out of me with only 150 feet to go before coming onto the rope...damn! Still makes for a shudder, thinking over the "what if?")
