Joined: 08 Jan 2005 Posts: 3143 Location: Wenatchee
Posted: Wed May 16, 2012 9:34 pm Post subject:
stevesliva wrote:
aaron_wright wrote:
stevesliva wrote:
aaron_wright wrote:
This thread is horse shit. I don't wear a helmet because I don't like them and don't want to wear one. A helmet might make a difference if I hit my head, I still don't want to wear one. Just like I don't use a helmet and gloves when I ride my bike, I don't want to. Why can't people just leave it at that? The premise of this thread is stupid, of course if you're racing downhill mountain bikes and taking chances on uneven rocky terrain with lots of obstacle, wear a helmet. Most people don't ride in conditions like that and probably don't need a helmet. If they think they need one for the average riding circumstance, they should wear one. I don't judge.
I agree.
Mitch and Bob and Aaron-- ya'll should wear a helmet. It's inarguable. Even aaron's not arguing. But christ on a cracker, I'm not calling you "thick" about it. (I am calling Mitch a teensy-weensy bit thick about the rick compensation thing, but seriously, you don't have to wear a helmet all the time. That's just not why.)
I probably should avoid deep pow in avalanche terrain, but that's probably not going to happen most of the time. This reminds me of Pinnah's argument about skiing fast, we shouldn't ski so fast. Nofuckingway, it's fun, even though I know I should slow down sometimes. The world is dangerous and taking chances is fun.
Yeah, but I just see the idea that "risk compensation" is a valid argument against helmet use akin to the idea that you can leave your beacon home on low danger days. Because sure, there's compensation with the beacon, too. So hypothetically with no beacon, you make better choices. But no one argues that you shouldn't bring the gd beacon-- they just bring it up with helmets.
I won't argue for not taking the beacon, but sometimes I/we don't. If the chances of it sliding are low to none and the consequences manageable, I don't see the need. Maybe I know something about the snowpack, terrain and history in the small area that I frequent that escapes the NWAC. I often tour by myself and don't wear my beacon then, I almost always wear it with others because it makes them more comfortable. Maybe I should take it, but there is no need. I hate "sacred cows".
Yeah, but I just see the idea that "risk compensation" is a valid argument against helmet use akin to the idea that you can leave your beacon home on low danger days.
You can, and sometimes I do.
But as far as risk compensation being a valid argument against helmet use, again you are propping up your strawman with overstatement. I have not said that risk compensation is a good reason not to use a helmet, it's just something in the decision making mix, something that makes the issue less black and white.
On another note...
A second interesting conclusion drawn by Dr. Hedlund in Risky business: safety regulations, risk compensation, and individual behavior follows:
Don't over-predict benefits. Many injury prevention measures promise more benefits than they deliver, due to bad science, political pressures, or failure to consider risk compensation or system effects. While calm and realistic benefit estimates are difficult to produce, unduly optimistic predictions will hamper injury prevention efforts in the long run.
I've seen a version of this time and time again here with regard to release bindings, and it goes like "I know my (insert releasable binding model) has saved me from serious injury three times already this year."
I've been on release bindings for six seasons at 100+ days/year, and while I've had three or four nice releases in big time falls over that period, the only thing I can say with absolute assuredness is that I have switched to longer beefier skis and am skiing way way faster than ever at the area, to the point that earlier this year one of my regular ski partners, who himself hauls ass, said to me, "you know, you don't need to ski any faster." In years past, before NTN, when I would get going the thought would run through my mind "these bindings don't release," and I'd often take it down a notch, now I think "my confidence in this release is growing, yee haw, let's go!"
Sounds like risk compensation to me. But like Aaron says, it sure is fun.
I again agree with the concept that it occurs, just don't necessarily think it leads to much validation of skipping helmets in many situations.
I do think it's about as simple with the helmet as it is with beacons or seatbelts-- make it a habit. That's pretty black-and-white. Especially for bikes, which is why I'm not too perturbed by the helmet laws. Less so for skiing. I leave it home when the weather's not inclement and I'm touring. I just think I'd be lying to myself if I thought I'd ski safer without the helmet. I don't ski that way. I wear it all the time at the resort because it's not annoying any more. Except closing day at Alta last year... I had a purple headband to go with the pink neon fartbag. Fashion slave.
Joined: 20 Oct 2005 Posts: 17738 Location: following Diogenes, but the ba$tard threw away the lamp so I'm just stumbling along in the dark!
Posted: Wed May 16, 2012 10:30 pm Post subject:
SteveK wrote:
But did you compensate for having the beacon? Did you have an extra two-four stashed in the truck - just in case - that then got broken out and consumed before its time?
well, there is a caveat....well, to tell the truth, it's more of a Steve McQueen grinning confession
not one of those "rescued" beers ever survived the process _________________ "Moderate is not the new Low" - Chris Joosen, USFS Lead Snow Ranger (Tuckerman Ravine, White Mountains National Forest)
Joined: 06 Dec 2004 Posts: 8409 Location: on your nerves....
Posted: Thu May 17, 2012 12:18 pm Post subject:
Mitch, Steve is a blockhead who sees everything in black and white and truly resents anyone who can parse an issue with any degree of nuance. He also thinks it's some type of character defect if you ever allow yourself to approach a controversy from more than one angle. And slaying straw men, and then pounding his emaciated chest in undeserved victory, is just his pathetic way of crawling through life. He does it all the time in the OT; he's a one trick pony.
This thread started as a discussion of helmets and cycling - not skiing. My gut feeling is that the efficacy of helmets for cycling is a far easier case to make than it is for skiing. That said, I don't care if people wear helmets when they ride - that's a personal decision. But depending upon the type of riding you're doing, your decision may affect the way I perceive you. Wearing a helmet while tooling around the hood at 6 mph on a 45lb , single speed, steel frame townie with flat pedals looks and is kinda dorky. OTOH, going lidless while out on a 50 mile, high speed hammerfest on a 17lb, multi-geared, carbon fiber spaceship looks kinda silly too.
Joined: 06 Dec 2004 Posts: 8409 Location: on your nerves....
Posted: Thu May 17, 2012 1:39 pm Post subject:
aaron_wright wrote:
NoOneInParticular wrote:
<<(db)>> wrote:
natural selection, folks
natural selection
LOL
yes indeed
I agree, people who can't ride or ski within their limits and get injured with or without helmets are surely candidates for a Darwin award.
You know Aaron, I've heard that sometimes people come off their bikes through no fault of their own. I've also heard that human error is just part and parcel of being....you know....human. Don't know if there's any truth to either of those things but I'm pretty sure I've heard them.
Joined: 20 Oct 2005 Posts: 17738 Location: following Diogenes, but the ba$tard threw away the lamp so I'm just stumbling along in the dark!
Posted: Thu May 17, 2012 2:05 pm Post subject:
Moose made crazy by biting and stinging bugs, runs amok, runs over MTBer..
Vigilant mother bear whacks MTBer who unknowingly passes close to bearcub...
Last winter's widowmaker falls, hits stick on ground, stick gets flung into path of cyclist and chaos ensues
Darwin?
Sorry, no. Stuff happens; causes are not always under anybody's control.
Forget about the freak accidents...the normal, every-day contretemps are quite enough reason to consider wearing a brain bucket.
Quote:
Fezzik: Why do you wear a helmet? Were you burned by acid, or something like that?
Man in Black: Oh no, it's just that they're terribly comfortable. I think everyone will be wearing them in the future.
_________________ "Moderate is not the new Low" - Chris Joosen, USFS Lead Snow Ranger (Tuckerman Ravine, White Mountains National Forest)
Joined: 08 Jan 2005 Posts: 3143 Location: Wenatchee
Posted: Thu May 17, 2012 2:51 pm Post subject:
freeheelwilly wrote:
aaron_wright wrote:
NoOneInParticular wrote:
<<(db)>> wrote:
natural selection, folks
natural selection
LOL
yes indeed
I agree, people who can't ride or ski within their limits and get injured with or without helmets are surely candidates for a Darwin award.
You know Aaron, I've heard that sometimes people come off their bikes through no fault of their own. I've also heard that human error is just part and parcel of being....you know....human. Don't know if there's any truth to either of those things but I'm pretty sure I've heard them.
Yes, but because someone chooses not to wear a helmet doesn't make them a candidate for a Darwin award as db is implying with his natural selection quote. Like I said skiing is dangerous, we're all candidates if you consider we can get maimed or killed with or without protective equipment. How many skier deaths in NE this winter with the victims wearing helmets? Were they all candidates?
And slaying straw men, and then pounding his emaciated chest in undeserved victory, is just his pathetic way of crawling through life.
Oh christ, give me a break. WTF was your schtick in the Tebow thread if not exactly this? Or just recently building up some farcical hippie robrox strawman so you could grandstand? You just abandon the strawman once you have your hooks in someone, and switch to random-ass insults, which Mitch clearly prefers. Keeps things on topic around here, I guess. But jesus, at least I keep up the pretense of some sort of actual disagreement. You prefer switching to poo-slinging ASAP.
Is "strawman" going to be your go-to for everything now? Tired of stretching "hypocrite" to fit every situation?
Joined: 06 Dec 2004 Posts: 8409 Location: on your nerves....
Posted: Thu May 17, 2012 2:58 pm Post subject:
aaron_wright wrote:
freeheelwilly wrote:
aaron_wright wrote:
NoOneInParticular wrote:
<<(db)>> wrote:
natural selection, folks
natural selection
LOL
yes indeed
I agree, people who can't ride or ski within their limits and get injured with or without helmets are surely candidates for a Darwin award.
You know Aaron, I've heard that sometimes people come off their bikes through no fault of their own. I've also heard that human error is just part and parcel of being....you know....human. Don't know if there's any truth to either of those things but I'm pretty sure I've heard them.
Yes, but because someone chooses not to wear a helmet doesn't make them a candidate for a Darwin award as db is implying with his natural selection quote. Like I said skiing is dangerous, we're all candidates if you consider we can get maimed or killed with or without protective equipment. How many skier deaths in NE this winter with the victims wearing helmets? Were they all candidates?
I don't agree with Darwin Award comment. I just took your comment to mean that if you simply ski and ride within your ability you'll never need one - which seems sort of silly. But I don't think, for even a second, that people that ski without helmets are "tempting fate" or somehow careless or reckless.
Moose made crazy by biting and stinging bugs, runs amok, runs over MTBer..
Situational awareness of moose country. Learn it, or avoid it.
Vigilant mother bear whacks MTBer who unknowingly passes close to bearcub...
Situational awareness of bear country. Learn it, or avoid it
Last winter's widowmaker falls, hits stick on ground, stick gets flung into path of cyclist and chaos ensues
Slow down for potential obstacles?
_________________ "She said, Boy, without a doubt, have to quit your mess and straighten out...you could die down here, be just another accident statistic."
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But like Aaron says, it sure is fun.
