Joined: 23 Dec 2010 Posts: 412 Location: in a subaru down by the dry wash
Posted: Fri Apr 27, 2012 8:38 pm Post subject:
While oversimplifying, I left out something most of use probably know: when turning, you want to avoid riding the brakes during the turn as much as possible. Ideally you brake before the turn, carry just the right amount of speed in, and carve the turn without any braking, or as little as possible given conditions, uneven camber, etc. The problem is judging what the right entry speed is.
If you brake during the turn, the limited traction (sideways frictional force) gets divided between braking force and centripetal force (inward acceleration that helps you turn). With less centripetal force you are more likely to lose traction. Hard braking on the rear wheel in a turn will often result in a skid or low-side. Braking on the front is a little better since your weight transfers to the front, but if you do lock or skid the front, you usually can't recover it.
Joined: 06 Dec 2004 Posts: 674 Location: West by God Virginia
Posted: Fri Apr 27, 2012 8:40 pm Post subject:
Whaaaa? Turn the handlebars left to go right? I don't get it. I watched the James bike video and can't make sense out of a word he said, but his riding looks good.
Whaaaa? Turn the handlebars left to go right? I don't get it. I watched the James bike video and can't make sense out of a word he said, but his riding looks good.
Sam Whittingham 81 mph (130 kph) (totally human powered)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5V2FgwN_re4&feature=related _________________ "Moderate is not the new Low" - Chris Joosen, USFS Lead Snow Ranger (Tuckerman Ravine, White Mountains National Forest)
I've heard this tidbit before but never understood it. An MTB isn't 400lbs like a motorcycle. Initiating turns with a countersteer isn't really neccessary (heck it's not really neccessary on a motorcycle). It's just not proper "form" on a motorcycle. On an MTB, I just angulate the bike while staying above it and it all takes care of itself. Just shove it down and rail it.
huh....???? not necessary on a motorcycle? not proper form? really? More than one novice rider has missed a corner on their motorcycle thanks to not knowing how to counter steer. Maybe there is some new school thought to the contrary (i would like to read that theory) but counter steering is absolutely necessary on a motorcycle, asking for big trouble if you don't have it dialed. Maybe all the superbike guys i knew were wrong and maybe my experience riding was overly influenced by them but that is kind of 'crazy' talk from my perspective.
It is also very effective on mountain bikes, maybe not 'necessary' but definitely helpful for quick response imho.
When I was getting an M1, I did it during my MSF safety course. I got scolded for just standing up and pushing the bike over, so I just countersteered the way they wanted me to. *shrug* Felt the same as the way I did it on my MTB when I did it "wrong".
Having watched the last couple of links, I think you guys are making too much of a fuss over countersteering. Once you get used to tipping the front wheel back and forth, countersteering becomes a unconscious action. Ok yeah, I do it too but I dont' focus on it and it feels like it doesn't even exist. I focus more on angulating the bike and pushing on the outside pedal. When the turn gets initiated, it's just a blip and you're already over into the turn.
Sometimes I steer the bike by pushing on the seat with my thighs or changing up the weighting on the pedals. Subtle movements just for angle adjustments when mostly going straightish. _________________ Drive the cuff
Joined: 07 Feb 2005 Posts: 1683 Location: back to the group "W" bench
Posted: Fri Apr 27, 2012 11:01 pm Post subject:
bbense has it right and that photo of shaums march is right on. I've been able to do this off and on but its not intuitive.
On flat ground you lean the bike into the turn by straightening your inside arm and pushing down. You stand vertically on your outside pedal (with it down) with all your weight to force the tire down into the ground. This is opposed to leaning your body into the turn which changes the vectors. You turn your shoulders/midsection into the turn, much like anticipating a turn in skiing. And of course you practice in a parking lot and have your tires about 24 psi.
Joined: 06 Dec 2004 Posts: 7098 Location: Breckenridge CO
Posted: Fri Apr 27, 2012 11:47 pm Post subject:
All this talk about physics and counter steering aside just remember a few basics:
1) Like skiing be loose but strong; Elbows bent, shoulders loose, core supple, legs absorbing and not fighting. You can lead with your outside shoulder a little. Weight on your outside pedal in the 6 o'clock position
2) Look in the direction you want to go.
3) Like skiing and the photos, upper body at angle to lower body/bike.
4) Your front brake is not your friend after you start to turn in. Sometimes I "trail brake" lightly dragging my back brake just enough to help me turn in, especially on tighter turns.
5) You have to believe you can lean your bike at acute angles.
6) Tires, suspension and conditions have a lot to do with it. you're not likely to be railing turns on semi slicks on loose baby heads and a poorly adjusted suspension. _________________ Creeds and doctrines are like a raft to get you to the other shore and then to relinquish. Neither cling to the raft or reject it when drowning. Even better, become a strong swimmer.
Joined: 06 Dec 2004 Posts: 8527 Location: The Sun Mountain Town
Posted: Sat Apr 28, 2012 12:20 am Post subject:
hutguy wrote:
6) Tires, suspension and conditions have a lot to do with it. you're not likely to be railing turns on semi slicks on loose baby heads and a poorly adjusted suspension.
Even if I have a seriously supple core? _________________ In seed time learn, in harvest teach, in winter enjoy. ~William Blake
Joined: 06 Dec 2004 Posts: 7098 Location: Breckenridge CO
Posted: Sat Apr 28, 2012 12:55 am Post subject:
Grant wrote:
hutguy wrote:
6) Tires, suspension and conditions have a lot to do with it. you're not likely to be railing turns on semi slicks on loose baby heads and a poorly adjusted suspension.
Even if I have a seriously supple core?
Even if you're so supple you're core. _________________ Creeds and doctrines are like a raft to get you to the other shore and then to relinquish. Neither cling to the raft or reject it when drowning. Even better, become a strong swimmer.
Joined: 06 Dec 2004 Posts: 705 Location: The Jefferson Institute
Posted: Sat Apr 28, 2012 1:36 am Post subject:
Don't try to keep up with your friends until you're comfortable through the corners. Slow yourself down before the corner and then let gravity accelerate you through it.
Other than that just keep your outside foot at the bottom of the pedal's stroke. In my experience loss of traction comes on slowly, linearly and predictably and is absolutely the funnest part of mountain biking for me.
Practice on asphalt if you have to. _________________ Well, let's play chess.
I've heard this tidbit before but never understood it. An MTB isn't 400lbs like a motorcycle. Initiating turns with a countersteer isn't really neccessary (heck it's not really neccessary on a motorcycle). It's just not proper "form" on a motorcycle. On an MTB, I just angulate the bike while staying above it and it all takes care of itself. Just shove it down and rail it.
huh....???? not necessary on a motorcycle? not proper form? really? More than one novice rider has missed a corner on their motorcycle thanks to not knowing how to counter steer. Maybe there is some new school thought to the contrary (i would like to read that theory) but counter steering is absolutely necessary on a motorcycle, asking for big trouble if you don't have it dialed. Maybe all the superbike guys i knew were wrong and maybe my experience riding was overly influenced by them but that is kind of 'crazy' talk from my perspective.
It is also very effective on mountain bikes, maybe not 'necessary' but definitely helpful for quick response imho.
When I was getting an M1, I did it during my MSF safety course. I got scolded for just standing up and pushing the bike over, so I just countersteered the way they wanted me to. *shrug* Felt the same as the way I did it on my MTB when I did it "wrong".
Having watched the last couple of links, I think you guys are making too much of a fuss over countersteering. Once you get used to tipping the front wheel back and forth, countersteering becomes a unconscious action. Ok yeah, I do it too but I dont' focus on it and it feels like it doesn't even exist. I focus more on angulating the bike and pushing on the outside pedal. When the turn gets initiated, it's just a blip and you're already over into the turn.
Sometimes I steer the bike by pushing on the seat with my thighs or changing up the weighting on the pedals. Subtle movements just for angle adjustments when mostly going straightish.
Like you said you do it to but it's 'unconscious', in fact in your earlier description of pushing down is in fact 'doing' it. Your comment that it isn't necessary nor proper form on a motorcycle spurred my reply. I've seen more than a couple people struggle on their motorcycles because it wasn't 'natural' to them... didn't take long to turn that around once they were shown. With bike like the M1 that handle so well, one can get away from it but even if you think you aren't using the technique you likely are, at least if you are pushing the bike but enough on that with superbikes from me. Keith Code can say it all so much better, check his quick comment on countersteering.
Quote:
LESSON 3: OUICK COUNTER STEERING
The exercise: steer quickly into turns. Why? In counter steering you put pressure on the handlebars in the opposite direction to the turn. So, for a right hander you push the right handlebar forward to turn. Most riders us this technique already, but some may not be aware they’re doing it. It’s much quicker and more accurate than trying to turn using your body weight.
The point is to counter steer strongly and quickly. The bike is leaned early so that it takes a smooth line round the corner and you don’t need to lean the bike as far over. If you lean the bike over slowly it won’t turn sharply until you reach the maximum lean angle. In effect, you lean further to make up the turning you didn’t do when the bike was more upright.
Keith says:"Once in the corner with the throttle on, the bike will stay where it is. There’s no need to ‘hold’ it in position. Counter steer once at the start of the turn, then, if you’re on the right line, you shouldn’t need to make more steering input. There’s no need to pull on the bars at the end of the counter steering action. When you stop pushing, you stop counter steering.
"This applies to riding in the wet too. The biggest fear in the wet is leaning the bike. Counter steering quickly reduces the amount you have to lean. You can’t counter steer as strongly in the wet as in the dry, but it’s possible to steer quickly as long as you’re smooth."
Results: At first it’s a bit scary to turn the bars hard, but as soon as you realize it works it’s a revelation. You do the steering bit at the start of the turn let the bike go round the corner (always remembering to roll on the throttle).
I think this can all be applied to all bikes.
Put the 'steering' into my head before my two descents this evening on our two 'slalom' trails, yep was using countersteering without really thinking about it but very subtle and fast. When i tried to not use it, wasn't quick enough on those trails, and felt way wrong. Just pressure each side of your handle bars one at a time sometime while riding straight down a trail and see which way you lean, play with it, even the slightest pressure you can feel the effect. Definitely other factors to great turns as others have detailed but countersteering is indeed a part of the equation.
Most rides i just ride without a thought to any of it but trying to improve by using all the little tips and techniques has value. As long as you remember to just ride some times. Is this going to morph into a riding unconscious or conscious thread? Please no one start telling me how under rated dpp's are after telling me countersteering is over rated.
bet you love that M1 hdiddy. mmmmm.... my last cycle was an FZR1000, that dates me a bit, it's still running strong under one of my brothers. It can still take your breath away. _________________
wow wrote:
Complexity adds confusion whether you are in charge of an avalanche center or headed out for the first tour.
Watching the Worlds (downhill) at Windham the last few years vastly improved my biking. Seeing what was really possible prompted me to go to my closet and get out my bigger set of balls. This translated to my skiing as well. The Worlds are going to be at Windham in June this year - worth the effort to see this show.
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Even if you're so supple you're core.
