Posted: Fri Apr 27, 2012 4:51 pm Post subject: How to "carve" on a MTB?
I've been mtb'ing for many years, but one thing I have just never really excelled at is high speed turns. When done right it really looks like the bike is "carving" the turn, much like skiing.
and, much like skiing, when I ride with friends who can do it well, they drop me as they just lay the bike/skis over into the turn and keep on flying, where I'm forced to lay on the brakes and/or slip through the turn.
On skis, I know it's an issue of body position and strength....and I'm getting better all the time.
on my mtb, I'm clueless. What should I be working on? Are there similar body position cues I should be paying attention too? how to practice without risking grave bodily harm when I f' it up?
Joined: 09 Dec 2005 Posts: 513 Location: On the banks of the Penobscot
Posted: Fri Apr 27, 2012 5:09 pm Post subject:
I always thought it was something only folks in BC can do on those silky, smooth dirt trails in those MTB videos that make me drool. We have way too many rocks and roots on most of what I ride in Maine to ever think about carving banked turns.
Joined: 20 Oct 2005 Posts: 17767 Location: following Diogenes, but the ba$tard threw away the lamp so I'm just stumbling along in the dark!
Posted: Fri Apr 27, 2012 5:11 pm Post subject:
giffordpinchot wrote:
I always thought it was something only folks in BC can do on those silky, smooth dirt trails in those MTB videos that make me drool. We have way too many rocks and roots on most of what I ride in Maine to ever think about carving banked turns.
I'm curious to hear all your tips, too.
What is this "smooth" you mention? _________________ "Moderate is not the new Low" - Chris Joosen, USFS Lead Snow Ranger (Tuckerman Ravine, White Mountains National Forest)
Joined: 08 Dec 2004 Posts: 7703 Location: Berkeley, CA /Tahoe
Posted: Fri Apr 27, 2012 5:13 pm Post subject: Re: How to "carve" on a MTB?
Carbo wrote:
on my mtb, I'm clueless. What should I be working on? Are there similar body position cues I should be paying attention too?
Not that I'm all that good at it, but for me anyway the sensations are very similar to skiing. Drop the outside leg and work on angulating at the waist. You need to feel your weight driving down the outside pedal
and forward to keep the traction on the front wheel. Just like on skis, get timid and back and you loose control.
This guy is really good, compare his body position to a good alpine skier.
Notice the angles at the hip and the weight forward.
Quote:
how to practice without risking grave bodily harm when I f' it up?
If you can find a bermed turn at a dirt bike jump park, get good elbow and knee pads and maybe a pair of padded shorts. You'll at least risk only moderate bodily harm.
Sorry, but if the dirt is hard enough to support the speed and friction of a "railed" MTB turn, it's going to hurt when you land on it. Getting forward also as the potential for endos and resulting shoulder injuries. The reason I'm a much faster skier than MTB'er is that I'm too chicken to push it enough to get good.
I'm not a great mtn biker but after years of hearing ski instructor trainers say that you should ski like you're riding a bike, perhaps you should bike like you're skiing. For example, angulate out over your outside foot (don't inclinate); initiate the turn with a diagonal movement; keep a strong inside half (lead with the inside hip???) and; oh yes, don't forget about the lead change (inside pedal high)!!
Might be useful advice, but he gets the physics wrong in the first 30 seconds. Most people do, the bike doesn't turn by leaning, bikes turn by turning the wheel in the direction you want to go. You have to lean to counter the inertial forces created by the turn, (i.e. if you turn sharp and you don't lean, you'll fall over just like when you try and turn a tricycle too fast. )
"Counter Steering" is just a controlled fall to get the bike to lean over quickly so you can quickly decrease the radius of the turn. It's something we all learn to do unconsciously when we learn to ride. It's a just deliberate exaggeration of what you are already doing to do it faster.
For me, understanding the real physics behind how a bike turns made a big difference. Unfortunately, there is almost no understanding of this in any of the various bike tutorials I've seen.
couple of things that have really helped me in turns (when i remember to do them...)
countersteer. i think this is really common in the motorcycle world, when you are coming into a turn start to lay the bike over into the turn by pointing your front wheel to the outside of the turn. as your bike starts to fall into the turn turn your front wheel back into your turn. it sound really funky to write it up, but what you're doing is forcing your weight into the center of the turn, then letting your bike swing around you.
steer with your hips. this one is just like skiing, when coming into the turn really twist your hips to point at the point you want to exit.
the other thing to try if you have enough suspension, is to really load into the suspension as you enter the turn, then as you hit the apex, the suspension will be pushing you back into the inside of the turn and letting you hold your line.
It's not rocket science. Just find a big parking lot or the street in front of your house and just try to get the bike to turn while keeping the handlebars straight (or turning minimally). Weight mostly on the outside foot, or on balanced pedals. The fancy stuff of angulating the bike comes naturally and you can angulate more the more you feel comfy with it and want to be aggressive in your turns.
The key is that you have to be standing on the pedals and allow the bike to move separately underneath you.
Also, I would focus on staying centered. On a loose trail, too much weight forward or too much angulation could also cause the front wheel to wash out. You eat it pretty hard if that happens. _________________ Drive the cuff
Joined: 08 Dec 2004 Posts: 7703 Location: Berkeley, CA /Tahoe
Posted: Fri Apr 27, 2012 7:18 pm Post subject:
hdiddy wrote:
Just find a big parking lot or the street in front of your house and just try to get the bike to turn while keeping the handlebars straight
This is the part that always screwed me up, in a fast turn you don't turn that much, but you have to turn the wheel.
To take a phrase from skiing "it's a dance, not a stance". There is a complicated dynamic relation between lean angle, speed, turn radius and how much you're turning the bars. Once I started thinking about it that way, I got much better.
Of course, once the back wheel starts sliding out, the whole thing changes again.
Posted: Fri Apr 27, 2012 7:30 pm Post subject: Re: How to "carve" on a MTB?
bbense wrote:
This guy is really good, compare his body position to a good alpine skier.
Notice the angles at the hip and the weight forward.
I once saw an article and photos comparing alpine racers technique and superbike motorcycle racers technique. Was amazed at the similarities... those photos reminded me of that article. No more superbikes for me anymore.
On mountain bikes committing to the 'turn' is my issue, when i do i amaze myself when i don't... yikes... _________________
wow wrote:
Complexity adds confusion whether you are in charge of an avalanche center or headed out for the first tour.
countersteer. i think this is really common in the motorcycle world, when you are coming into a turn start to lay the bike over into the turn by pointing your front wheel to the outside of the turn. as your bike starts to fall into the turn turn your front wheel back into your turn. it sound really funky to write it up, but what you're doing is forcing your weight into the center of the turn, then letting your bike swing around you.
I've heard this tidbit before but never understood it. An MTB isn't 400lbs like a motorcycle. Initiating turns with a countersteer isn't really neccessary (heck it's not really neccessary on a motorcycle). It's just not proper "form" on a motorcycle. On an MTB, I just angulate the bike while staying above it and it all takes care of itself. Just shove it down and rail it.
And just for semantics, I don't think you should call it "carving" a turn on an MTB - it's more like railing it like you would on a big GS turn. Love them singletrack & fireroads that allow for lots of this type of riding. Feels like you're on a rollercoaster when you do very little handlebar steering. _________________ Drive the cuff
countersteer. i think this is really common in the motorcycle world, when you are coming into a turn start to lay the bike over into the turn by pointing your front wheel to the outside of the turn. as your bike starts to fall into the turn turn your front wheel back into your turn. it sound really funky to write it up, but what you're doing is forcing your weight into the center of the turn, then letting your bike swing around you.
I've heard this tidbit before but never understood it. An MTB isn't 400lbs like a motorcycle. Initiating turns with a countersteer isn't really neccessary (heck it's not really neccessary on a motorcycle). It's just not proper "form" on a motorcycle. On an MTB, I just angulate the bike while staying above it and it all takes care of itself. Just shove it down and rail it.
And just for semantics, I don't think you should call it "carving" a turn on an MTB - it's more like railing it like you would on a big GS turn. Love them singletrack & fireroads that allow for lots of this type of riding. Feels like you're on a rollercoaster when you do very little handlebar steering.
huh....???? not necessary on a motorcycle? not proper form? really? More than one novice rider has missed a corner on their motorcycle thanks to not knowing how to counter steer. Maybe there is some new school thought to the contrary (i would like to read that theory) but counter steering is absolutely necessary on a motorcycle, asking for big trouble if you don't have it dialed. Maybe all the superbike guys i knew were wrong and maybe my experience riding was overly influenced by them but that is kind of 'crazy' talk from my perspective.
It is also very effective on mountain bikes, maybe not 'necessary' but definitely helpful for quick response imho.
it is kind of funky the way it's written up in heartgravity post, it's more a pressure on the handle bars that 'barely' turns the front wheel, to say the wheel actually 'turns' towards the outside of a turn and back into the turn is almost an exaggeration, once the bike is leaned the wheel isn't 'turned' that much, i've played alot with it on the mountain bike and it works really well. Instead of thinking of turning your wheel, just slightly pressure your handle bars to the outside and then back once you are in the lean. Most good riders do it even if they aren't 'aware' they are doing it i would guess. _________________
wow wrote:
Complexity adds confusion whether you are in charge of an avalanche center or headed out for the first tour.
Joined: 23 Dec 2010 Posts: 413 Location: in a subaru down by the dry wash
Posted: Fri Apr 27, 2012 8:25 pm Post subject:
IMO, turning a bike, road or MTB, is less sensitive to technique than turning skis. You do initiate the lean by turning the wheel, but we all know how to do this. Anyone who has ridden a bike for a while is nearly unconscious with the fundamentals of how to turn. The problem of turning elegantly is in judging the turn - approach, speed and angle.
Picking the line is something you can work on with practice, but it doesn't seem to me to be the hardest part. Carrying as much speed into a turn as you can and fully committing to the turn, resulting in a high lean angle and a fast, no-skidding turn, is the hard part. It is both judging what traction you can hold given the banking and the quality of the surface, and a straight-up head game.
The head game is the hard part. I followed some good descenders on the road (I am a terrible descender compared to them, and a freakin' genius compared to your average century rider) and I just don't have the head for it. You can learn to get better at this by pushing your limits and taking turns faster and faster, but that will eventually mean low-siding it. Practicing on grass would probably be a good idea. I practiced on grass to get over my mental block on doing cyclocross dismounts.
You cannot post new topics in this forum You cannot reply to topics in this forum You cannot edit your posts in this forum You cannot delete your posts in this forum You cannot vote in polls in this forum
All of the comments above are owned by the
poster, telemarktips.com is not responsible in any way for the
content. The views expressed by the posters are not necessarily
those of Tt.com, its management or owners. Ski safe, be happy,
rip it up, smile on your brother and sister!
FAQ
Search
Memberlist
Usergroups
Register
Profile
Log in to check your private messages
Log in
