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SoulMan
Joined: 07 Dec 2004
Posts: 555
Location: Poulsbo, Washington
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 Posted: Tue Apr 24, 2012 3:56 pm Post subject: Spring Snow wax longevity |
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I've been out a four times in the last two weeks in the PNW in sunny, warm conditions for three of those days. One thing I noticed right off was that my spring wax ain't very durable. I hot-waxed in some, corked in some every time and by the end of the day, my bases are looking chalky like I never waxed in spots. For reference, I've been using Hertel Spring Solution and most recently Zardoz iron-in/cork-in block wax combined with Zardoz wipe-on.
I have also textured my bases with my brass brush, so the dreaded "snow suck" isn't that bad.
I don't recall this phenomenon being so prevalent in past years, so I could use tips for you more expert skiers, wanna be's or even lurkers.
Comments? Thanks.
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"That's better than Juicy Fruit with crack rolled up in it." (as I said to my ski buddy after a particularly good powder run.) |
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robrox
Joined: 20 Oct 2005
Posts: 17741
Location: following Diogenes, but the ba$tard threw away the lamp so I'm just stumbling along in the dark!
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cesare
Joined: 06 Dec 2004
Posts: 13194
Location: People's Republic
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| Posted: Tue Apr 24, 2012 4:10 pm Post subject: |
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Local warming.
When there is liquid water present in the snow, you get surface tension. Wax helps a little for a while. For me, it's less than a half day of touring. I just accept that the wax I ironed in and scraped last night is good for maybe two runs today. Zardoz can extend that once you are getting really slow, but nothing is perfect. It's not powder.
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that sounds like a sure-fire way to get bitch-slapped by devil's club -- dschane |
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Mr. T
Joined: 18 Aug 2006
Posts: 2079
Location: Bellingham
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| Posted: Tue Apr 24, 2012 4:41 pm Post subject: |
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When you have warm but occasionally abrasive conditions mix some cold wax in with the warm stuff. The cold waxes are harder and resist the abrasion much better. Such a solution is typical when xc racing in man-made or spring conditions. I use about a half and half mix of Swix CH 8 or 10 and CH 6.
If you have too much structure the dirt or spring guck can become a problem. Shallow structure is best. |
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pfranc
Joined: 04 Aug 2011
Posts: 8
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| Posted: Tue Apr 24, 2012 4:43 pm Post subject: |
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| fuxi racing sells a brand called "saucer wax". it is a soft red and it holds up well when ironed in. comes in round pucks shaped like flying saucers and has a space alien on the container. i have also had good luck with purple and yellow wax by pearl wax. when its really warm, and snow is slushy i have heard ivory bar soap is the way to go but havent tried that yet |
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James
Joined: 24 Jan 2005
Posts: 6983
Location: Castle Rock, CO
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| Posted: Tue Apr 24, 2012 5:29 pm Post subject: |
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| Mr. T wrote: | | If you have too much structure the dirt or spring guck can become a problem. Shallow structure is best. |
I was under the impression that in cold months you want a very smooth base and in the warmer months you want more structure so you don't get the suction effect from the wet snow. Am I nuts.
About this topic anyway. |
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pfranc
Joined: 04 Aug 2011
Posts: 8
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| Posted: Tue Apr 24, 2012 5:50 pm Post subject: |
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we use more structure in spring and less in winter / cold snow for our race skis. the extra structure breaks down suction with the warm snow. i have not had an issue with structure attracting gunk.
it seems like base material that ski manufacturers use is also a factor. my local shop has noticed that their black diamond demos dont seem to hold wax as well as other manufactureres and I have also noticed that my wifes k2's dont seem to hold wax as well. |
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Mr. T
Joined: 18 Aug 2006
Posts: 2079
Location: Bellingham
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| Posted: Tue Apr 24, 2012 6:46 pm Post subject: |
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| James wrote: | | Mr. T wrote: | | If you have too much structure the dirt or spring guck can become a problem. Shallow structure is best. |
I was under the impression that in cold months you want a very smooth base and in the warmer months you want more structure so you don't get the suction effect from the wet snow. Am I nuts.
About this topic anyway. |
James, in general the colder the snow the finer the structure. Conversely, warmer and wetter snow requires more structure.
Friction is the challenge with cold snow whereas suction poses the problems with warmer snow. Cold wax is harder and is designed to harden the base so as to better deal with the friction. Warm wax is softer, more hydrophobic, and deals with the suction better. Softer waxes are designed to wear away (shed) and expose a cleaner surface.
Warm conditions are not all the same and often dirt, dust, pollen, goat hair, and other crap are part of the snow. This stuff sticks to regular warm wax readily and for this, expensive fluoro powders and less expensive but still pricy HF block waxes are made but they are $$$ and rarely used on touring skis. The morning crust and dirt can abrade the soft waxes so that's why mixing in some harder cold wax can help with the durability.
As for the structure, in clean wet snow, a deep, even a sharp structure will work well, but when dirt and pollen and the other junk is at play, too deep and aggressive a structure will cause the stuff to stick to the ski base even more than on a non-structured ski.
Most shops that do stonegrinding will have a choice of structures with a specific shallow structure for spring skiing. It is a wide but shallow pattern. Such a pattern will clean more easily in the field on really bad days. |
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James
Joined: 24 Jan 2005
Posts: 6983
Location: Castle Rock, CO
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| Posted: Tue Apr 24, 2012 6:54 pm Post subject: |
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| Thanks. |
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SoulMan
Joined: 07 Dec 2004
Posts: 555
Location: Poulsbo, Washington
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| Posted: Tue Apr 24, 2012 7:12 pm Post subject: |
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| Mr. T wrote: | | When you have warm but occasionally abrasive conditions mix some cold wax in with the warm stuff. The cold waxes are harder and resist the abrasion much better. |
Makes perfect sense. I hadn't thought of that, but then I attended Southern Public Schools.  All the more reason to ask questions here on Ttips!
| Mr. T wrote: | | If you have too much structure the dirt or spring guck can become a problem. Shallow structure is best. |
That's what I've got and it seems to be working.
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"That's better than Juicy Fruit with crack rolled up in it." (as I said to my ski buddy after a particularly good powder run.) |
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Captain Nordic
Joined: 31 May 2006
Posts: 155
Location: Truckee/Tahoe Donner
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| Posted: Tue Apr 24, 2012 8:36 pm Post subject: |
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Mr. T has his knowledge solid. Deeper structures do tend to pick up particulates more. It's a fine line between having enough structure for suction release and too much that picks up dirt in the Spring.
One thing to think about, and that goes against the minimalist tendencies of many on this board, is that higher fluorocarbon content is both more hydrophobic AND durable. Yes, a bit more expensive to wax with, but if performance is what you are looking for, the cost can be worth it, but it depends on the individual.
You definitely want a wax that is durable and does not pick up pollutants in the spring conditions. You're also dealing with the variable of skiing in the morning on VERY hard, abrasive snow (where you don't really need a softer, more fluorinated wax), and then in the late morning is turning to slush.
One wax that I've been using for long distance skate trips in the spring is the new Swix Marathon DH410 wax. It basically is a very hard wax (close to HF4), but is "super-fluorinated" (which the colder HF waxes do not have). It also is a "BlackWolf" wax, so is more dirt-repellent. No question that it's more expensive, but like any HF waxes, you can, with proper technique, make a bar last a long time. YMMV.
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Captain Nordic |
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James
Joined: 24 Jan 2005
Posts: 6983
Location: Castle Rock, CO
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| Posted: Tue Apr 24, 2012 8:48 pm Post subject: |
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| I don't care much about the cost (of wax at least) or the time to do this correctly but I have always avoided HF or waxes other then the CH series waxes because of what they might do to my lungs. I am not a racer just anal about ski maintenance. |
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Mr. T
Joined: 18 Aug 2006
Posts: 2079
Location: Bellingham
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| Posted: Tue Apr 24, 2012 9:13 pm Post subject: |
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| James wrote: | | I don't care much about the cost (of wax at least) or the time to do this correctly but I have always avoided HF or waxes other then the CH series waxes because of what they might do to my lungs. I am not a racer just anal about ski maintenance. |
It is a common misperception that HF waxes are a problem for the lungs. If used without the iron being too hot and causing smoke thre is no problem. The evil fluoro reputation comes from the powdered nearly pure fluoros $$$$ used as a top layer for racing.
Standard HF waxes look and behave in application like normal waxes.
Listen to the Captain, meep, meep! |
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Paul Lutes
Joined: 06 Dec 2004
Posts: 3392
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| Posted: Tue Apr 24, 2012 10:18 pm Post subject: |
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| I was paranoid about HF waxes too, but was so frustrated in the recent slop that I broke down and gave it a shot: muuuuuuch better performance, as in lasted all day! |
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Highland Sport
Joined: 08 Sep 2009
Posts: 2043
Location: Pete's House of Munch
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| Posted: Tue Apr 24, 2012 10:29 pm Post subject: |
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| James wrote: | | Mr. T wrote: | | If you have too much structure the dirt or spring guck can become a problem. Shallow structure is best. |
I was under the impression that in cold months you want a very smooth base and in the warmer months you want more structure so you don't get the suction effect from the wet snow. Am I nuts.
About this topic anyway. |
James you would not be wrong! |
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