Joined: 06 Dec 2004 Posts: 5700 Location: Colorado Higher Country
Posted: Fri Jun 09, 2006 4:03 pm Post subject: Haditha "massacre" a fraud?
I pass no judgement on this opinion or the event itself. I wish to wait for the results of the investigation.
However, since so many have rushed to judgement and the fact that we don't have one of these threads, thought I'd throw this red meat out for your consumption.
I'll continue to give benefit of the doubt until the story is finished. My position as one who is powerless to alter the outcome gives me that privilege.
Joined: 06 Dec 2004 Posts: 4135 Location: psssttt, over here...
Posted: Fri Jun 09, 2006 10:51 pm Post subject:
red meat? oh come on....Do you really think that if this incident was simply a reaction to an IED attack that the head of the Marine Corp would be traveling throughout Iraq, that one general's promotion would be put on hold and that the Bush would have weighed in publicly already?
What I am concerned about is this happened fall 2005, Time reported it in March and its an issue now? That investigation is probably the result of the Time story and should have happened earlier. it disturbs me this appears as though they got caught with their pants down around their knees and that's the reason they are investigating. I am also concerned about how high up the command this might have gotten.
and what about the guy who was drug out of his house, shot, and they dummied up some evidence that made it look like he was digging a hole for an IED?
wierd, but yea, let's see the investigation and watch the food fight afterwards. _________________ It's all about fun....
Joined: 01 Jan 2006 Posts: 10847 Location: Where the wind don't blow so strange
Posted: Fri Jun 09, 2006 11:05 pm Post subject:
Quote:
red meat? oh come on....Do you really think that if this incident was simply a reaction to an IED attack that the head of the Marine Corp would be traveling throughout Iraq, that one general's promotion would be put on hold and that the Bush would have weighed in publicly already?
What I am concerned about is this happened fall 2005, Time reported it in March and its an issue now? That investigation is probably the result of the Time story and should have happened earlier. it disturbs me this appears as though they got caught with their pants down around their knees and that's the reason they are investigating. I am also concerned about how high up the command this might have gotten.
and what about the guy who was drug out of his house, shot, and they dummied up some evidence that made it look like he was digging a hole for an IED?
wierd, but yea, let's see the investigation and watch the food fight afterwards.
Investigation? Who needs it? I for one think we should string these SOBs up now!
I'm also giving them the benefit of the doubt for now, if only because I really do not want to believe that American soldiers would machine gun Iraqi children in their beds.
Lets see what happens and hope for the best. I would much rather this be a fraud than really have happened.
I would feel a lot better if the administration/military hadn't played so loose with past stories. After Jessica Lynch, Pat Tillman, Abu Ghraib, the orchestrated fall of Saddam's statue, the placed news stories, the fake letters from soldiers, the absolute refusal to count civilian casualties, the unprecedented efforts of a multitude of generals publicly speaking out against the administration, the unaccounted billion $ in reconstruction aide, the spike in violence attributed to the last-gasp of a faltering insurgency, etc., etc., etc., what am I to think?
I would like to think that we are better than this, but I keep getting disappointed. Do I believe that it is possible for this to happen? Sure. Do I believe that it is possible that this is faked? Sure. Do I believe my country's leaders? Not on your life!!!
This is why they need red meat issues that all of humanity knows is what really matters - like gay marriage, flag burning, etc. A friend is back from Iraq and says that most of the soldiers now think that we got suckered by our leaders.
Joined: 02 Feb 2006 Posts: 5123 Location: Mammoth Lakes (sometimes)
Posted: Sat Jun 10, 2006 6:32 pm Post subject: Re: Haditha "massacre" a fraud?
otis of moab wrote:
I pass no judgement on this opinion or the event itself. I wish to wait for the results of the investigation.
However, since so many have rushed to judgement and the fact that we don't have one of these threads, thought I'd throw this red meat out for your consumption.
"and what about the guy who was drug out of his house, shot, and they dummied up some evidence that made it look like he was digging a hole for an IED?"
I do believe in this incident the persons involved were discovered, prosecuted and convicted, with the publicity only really occuring with the conviction.
funhog wrote:
red meat? oh come on....Do you really think that if this incident was simply a reaction to an IED attack that the head of the Marine Corp would be traveling throughout Iraq, that one general's promotion would be put on hold and that the Bush would have weighed in publicly already?
What I am concerned about is this happened fall 2005, Time reported it in March and its an issue now? That investigation is probably the result of the Time story and should have happened earlier. it disturbs me this appears as though they got caught with their pants down around their knees and that's the reason they are investigating. I am also concerned about how high up the command this might have gotten.
and what about the guy who was drug out of his house, shot, and they dummied up some evidence that made it look like he was digging a hole for an IED?
wierd, but yea, let's see the investigation and watch the food fight afterwards.
I seem to recall an article of justice that says innocent until proven guilty. Regardless, there's enough history to make a statement like that-"if nothing happened then why the coverup"- to be scary these days.
The Washington Post reported on Monday that the Iraqi victim at Hamdaniya was Hashim Ibrahim Awad al-Zobaie, a 52-year-old disabled man shot four times in the face. His family told the Post that a small group of U.S. servicemen came to them last week and offered the family money in exchange for supporting the Marines' version of the killing.
Tribal leaders told Marine officers about the Hashim Awad's death during a regularly scheduled community outreach meeting May 1. U.S. officials opened an investigation shortly after that.
Since then, American forces have questioned the family repeatedly, relatives said, sometimes in the middle of the night. They said the Americans once took several of them to Abu Ghraib prison and held them for hours, questioning only one of them. They rode home in a military convoy.
"We believe the Americans are trying to terrorize us so we won't talk," said Hussein, Hashim Awad's cousin.
Perhaps the Iraqi government should launch its own investigation.
RDC wrote:
"and what about the guy who was drug out of his house, shot, and they dummied up some evidence that made it look like he was digging a hole for an IED?"
I do believe in this incident the persons involved were discovered, prosecuted and convicted, with the publicity only really occuring with the conviction.
funhog wrote:
red meat? oh come on....Do you really think that if this incident was simply a reaction to an IED attack that the head of the Marine Corp would be traveling throughout Iraq, that one general's promotion would be put on hold and that the Bush would have weighed in publicly already?
What I am concerned about is this happened fall 2005, Time reported it in March and its an issue now? That investigation is probably the result of the Time story and should have happened earlier. it disturbs me this appears as though they got caught with their pants down around their knees and that's the reason they are investigating. I am also concerned about how high up the command this might have gotten.
and what about the guy who was drug out of his house, shot, and they dummied up some evidence that made it look like he was digging a hole for an IED?
wierd, but yea, let's see the investigation and watch the food fight afterwards.
Joined: 02 Feb 2006 Posts: 5123 Location: Mammoth Lakes (sometimes)
Posted: Sun Jun 11, 2006 1:33 am Post subject:
Aaron D. wrote:
I seem to recall an article of justice that says innocent until proven guilty. Regardless, there's enough history to make a statement like that-"if nothing happened then why the coverup"- to be scary these days.
I don't get your point. What is scary about the statement. Do you not think that there was a coverup?
Joined: 08 Dec 2004 Posts: 2793 Location: Bay Area
Posted: Sun Jun 11, 2006 4:14 am Post subject:
Aaron D. wrote:
I seem to recall an article of justice that says innocent until proven guilty. Regardless, there's enough history to make a statement like that-"if nothing happened then why the coverup"- to be scary these days.
It doesn't seem like anyone should have to point this out, but "innocent until proven guilty" applies to specific individuals getting convicted of crimes. It does not apply to considering the general credibility of a news story.
Joined: 02 Feb 2006 Posts: 5123 Location: Mammoth Lakes (sometimes)
Posted: Sun Jun 11, 2006 6:52 pm Post subject:
aglandau wrote:
Let’s not rush into premature conclusions and wait for the final verdict. Can we please give the US army a little time to work this out ?
You know, it’s hard work playing the role of investigator, defendant, prosecutor, judge AND jury.
As well as unindicted co-conspiritor.
Quote:
Col. Jessep: What do you wanna discuss now? My favorite color?
Kaffee: Colonel, a moment ago you said that you ordered Lieutenant Kendrick to tell his men that Santiago wasn't to be touched.
Col. Jessep: That's right.
Kaffee: And Lieutenant Kendrick was clear on what you wanted?
Col. Jessep: Crystal.
Kaffee: Any chance Lieutenant Kendrick ignored the order?
Col. Jessep: Ignored the order?
Kaffee: Any chance he forgot about it?
Col. Jessep: No.
Kaffee: Any chance Lieutenant left your office and said, 'The old man is wrong'?
Col. Jessep: No.
Kaffee: When Lieutenant Kendrick spoke to the Platoon, and ordered them not to touch Santiago, any chance they ignored him?
Col. Jessep: You ever served in an infantry unit, son?
Kaffee: No, sir.
Col. Jessep: Ever served in a forward area?
Kaffee: No, sir.
Col. Jessep: Ever put your life in another man's hands: asked him to put his life in yours?
Kaffee: No, sir.
Col. Jessep: We follow orders, son. We follow orders, or people die; it's that simple. Are we clear?
Kaffee: Yes, sir.
Col. Jessep: [nearly shouting] Are we clear?
Kaffee: Crystal. Colonel, I've just one more question before I call Airman O'Malley and Airman Rodriguez; if you gave an order that Santiago wasn't to be touched, and your orders ar always followed, then why would Santiago be in danger? Why would it be necessary to transfer him off the base?
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Kaffee: Did you order the Code Red?
Col. Jessep: I did the job I...
Kaffee: [shouting] Did you order the Code Red?
Col. Jessep: [shouts] You're goddamn right I did!
Joined: 07 Dec 2004 Posts: 5831 Location: Flying over the Earth poisoning you with chemtrails
Posted: Sun Jun 11, 2006 7:29 pm Post subject:
Here is one account:
Quote:
Puckett gave this account to the Post, based on his interview with Wuterich:
Immediately after the roadside bomb, Marines noticed a car full of "military-aged men" near the bomb site who ran when ordered to stop. Marines opened fire, killing four or five men.
The unit subsequently came under fire and a corporal identified the shots as coming from a specific house. A four-man team, including Wuterich, kicked in the door and found a series of empty rooms before hearing people behind one door. They kicked that one in, tossed a fragmentation grenade into the room and one Marine fired a series of rounds through dust and smoke, killing several people.
Even though they realized they had killed men, women and children, they saw a back door ajar and believed insurgents had moved to a second house. The Marines moved to the second house, kicking in the door, killing one man inside and then using another grenade and more gunfire to clear another room full of people.
Still having not found the insurgents, Wuterich told his team to stop and headed back to reassess the situation with his platoon leader, realizing that a number of civilians had just been killed.
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