Posted: Wed Mar 07, 2012 6:38 pm Post subject: The Gore-Tex NeoShell brouhaha
I'm sure someone has an opinion on this. _________________ 28 pages of blah, blah, blah. -Grant
Congrats. You've just discovered what [this] forum is all about. -x-eff
...
Tele will always be a coveted art form, and a certain segment will always gravitate towards it.-climbhoser
IN 2004, GENERAL ELECTRIC, one of the country’s largest and most profitable conglomerates, purchased BHA Group, the small company that brought eVent to market. For the first time, it looked as if someone had the money and muscle to rearrange the waterproof-breathable hierarchy. But it didn’t happen. According to dozens of industry veterans I spoke with, Gore responded to eVent—and the threat of other technologies—with an iron fist.
According to multiple sources, in 2002, shortly after introducing a product with eVent, the footwear maker Vasque had its license terminated by Gore. (Vasque declined to comment for this story.) Then, in 2003, according to OR Daily, venerable gear maker and Gore licensee Lowe Alpine debuted a new line of outerwear featuring eVent, only to promptly pull the garments and revert back to using Gore-Tex. (Lowe Alpine later closed up shop entirely.) Insiders say there are dozens of similar stories about Gore giving its licensees an us-or-them ultimatum, but no one would offer any on the record.
_________________ "Now is not the time for sound-bites" - David Cameron
I'll go back and read them all when I have time, but I skimmed the first four and must say I find it interesting.
Gore is like most of corporate America. They will say and do anything to maintain and increase market share. It's certainly sad that they are a big part of an industry that has generally been ruled by passion rather than bottom line. Truthfully I felt that the downturn in the economy was the straw that broke the proverbial camel's back when it came to the last strands of business ethics that had made our industry notorious and a popular place to work.
I just recently was rejected for a warranty claim on a pair of sunglasses from a company that I own 6 pairs of their shades. They've been exceedingly fair with me for over ten years and I've worn their products as a professional guide and ski patrolman always quick to brag about how much I like them. Now I wonder, outside of any ethical dilemma, if it makes business sense to disgruntle a customer over a product with a 2000% mark up.
Joined: 06 Dec 2004 Posts: 8536 Location: The Sun Mountain Town
Posted: Wed Mar 07, 2012 7:25 pm Post subject:
There are two farmer's who sell beef at my local Farmer's Market. One guy bitched that the market manager allowed another farmer to sell beef. The other farmer said he would be happy if both their booths were right next to one another. That way folks could try meat from each of them and and make up their own mind. He was confident that the following week all the customers would come back and buy more from him. He felt he had a better product and knew customers would figure that out.
Guess who I buy my beef from.
Instead of spending a bunch of money hiring lawyers to put down competition, maybe firms should drop that into R&D and come up with better products. _________________ Vermont, Canada and Venezuela all offer you the opportunity to live in the socialist, big government paradise you long for.
-Marco Rubio
Gortex has done a great job with marketing their product(s) thru the years. They have excellent licensing and quaility control measures that produce great product(s) people have come to trust. But the problem is not outdoor people who are always looking for the best gear but middle america. Goretex has become synonymous with waterproof breathable, kind of like BMW means well built car. I think if anybody is going to change peoples preception about waterproof breathables they need to outspend goretex in marketing. Even then it may be impossible due to the decades head start in goretex has over any new comers no matter how good the technology. _________________ Older does not mean wiser.... it just means your BS is better!
Joined: 21 Jan 2005 Posts: 90 Location: Missoula, MT
Posted: Wed Mar 07, 2012 9:37 pm Post subject:
The Outside article is surprisingly well-written and researched. According to BackpackingLight tests, NeoShell is nothing great, eVent is somewhat more breathable that GoreTex, and the polyurethane coatings (such as found in the Precip) are less breathable than GoreTex.
My experience has been eVent is fine for summer (or for sleeping bag shells), but I prefer Gore ProShell in the winter because eVent is not completely windproof. I've also had durability problems with the inner scrim of eVent, and on a Nemo eVent tent that I had, all the seam tape gave way after the first rainy night.
In my use, I've found the GoreTex membrane to be far more durable than the coatings such as Patagonia's H2No and Marmot Precip.
Joined: 12 Dec 2007 Posts: 1952 Location: VT near Jay Peak
Posted: Wed Mar 07, 2012 9:47 pm Post subject:
I have Gore-Tex gear going back to the 1980s, when you had to use a liquid Seam Sealer on the seams.
A few years ago I bought a "Conduit" jacket, to save some money. Big mistake, and I immediately returned to Gore-Tex for technical shells.
I am still skiing in a pair of Arc'teryx Gore-Tex XCR bib pants purchased in 2006.
I now have the newer Gore-Tex ProShell Arcteryx bib pants, and Beta AR jackets. Totally bomber, whether on wet chair rides out West, on the skin track or scraping trees in Vermont.
The Outside article is surprisingly well-written and researched. According to BackpackingLight tests, NeoShell is nothing great, eVent is somewhat more breathable that GoreTex, and the polyurethane coatings (such as found in the Precip) are less breathable than GoreTex.
My experience has been eVent is fine for summer (or for sleeping bag shells), but I prefer Gore ProShell in the winter because eVent is not completely windproof. I've also had durability problems with the inner scrim of eVent, and on a Nemo eVent tent that I had, all the seam tape gave way after the first rainy night.
In my use, I've found the GoreTex membrane to be far more durable than the coatings such as Patagonia's H2No and Marmot Precip.
As I wrote (i think) in a recent thread on WPB, my lightweight eVent REI Shuksan does not feel windproof in a cold, icy wind.
but my eVent Westcomb Revenant definitely does feel windproof. It's much thicker and stiffer material than the Shuksan however. And also feels less breathable i.e. I find myself using the pit zips on it (whereas the Shuksan doesn't have, or need, pit zips).
Agree that the outside article seems well written. _________________ "Now is not the time for sound-bites" - David Cameron
another fabric in that article is Outdry. I have some mtn hardwear gloves using that WPB, and so far (about a year of use) I've been impressed w/ the comfort range on these lightly lined shell gloves.
my metabolism/circulation is such that WPB gloves generally don't work well for me in the backcountry -- get hot, sweaty, and then clammy during exertion. These Outdry gloves have done pretty well in that respect, however. Definitely better than any goretex or XCR glove I've owned.
I haven't tried Gore Proshell. Should I? _________________ "Now is not the time for sound-bites" - David Cameron
Joined: 30 Dec 2004 Posts: 1646 Location: New Paltz
Posted: Thu Mar 08, 2012 12:00 am Post subject:
I skied today in 55 deg sunny but windy weather in a Marmot Zion NeoShell softshell, very comfortable, I wouldn't even have considered using a Goretex shell it would have been way to sweaty. The NeoShell softshell from Marmot is softer, stretchier, and way more comfortable than any Gore product that I've used, the NeoShell material really seems to work for me.
I got the NeoShell jacket as a waranty replacement when my Goretex shell delaminated and the seam tape pealed off, the 3rd Goretex shell that I had that happen to, so much for the Goretex seal of quality.
I have the Marmot NeoShell Zion, a Cloudveil Koven Plus with Schoeller C-Change material, and an Arcteryx Goretex Softshell Stingray jacket. Although the Stingray is a wonderfully constructed jacket as per Arcteryx standards, I mainly use either the Zion or the Koven plus now, and I sold my Gamma MX softshell as the Zion seems to breath as well, and is fully waterproof as well.
According to BackpackingLight tests, NeoShell is nothing great
Wow, I haven't found this to be the case at all. I got a Marmot Zion NeoShell and I find it to be really amazing (one of the few "new" outdoor technologies that actually offers a real improvement.)
(FWIW, I did get it for free...) Even so, I would never wear Gore-tex skinning up a consistently steep-ish slope in 30 degree weather. I found the Neoshell worked great in those conditions--breathed about as well as a non-laminated softshell jacket, and wind-resistant at least as good as goretex, if not better.
(And in terms of other objective testers, I know Lou Dawson of WildSnow was really impressed with NeoShell as well.)
Now I wonder, outside of any ethical dilemma, if it makes business sense to disgruntle a customer over a product with a 2000% mark up.
I think you be quite surprised how low the markups and margins in the outdoor industry actually are.
Do eVent or NeoShell offer the Gore warranty whereby a defective piece of clothing can be warrantied to the fabric entity (Gore) and replaced with a comparable piece of clothing from any brand using a similar fabric?
Joined: 20 Oct 2005 Posts: 17741 Location: following Diogenes, but the ba$tard threw away the lamp so I'm just stumbling along in the dark!
Posted: Fri Mar 09, 2012 3:55 pm Post subject:
Business Bullies Frost My Hide!
Fortunately, EMS System III (20k) is a nice alternative. My Expedition Stretch-Tech shell jacket (System III) is nearly 10 years old and still sound in every respect. It's not light but it breathes great and has stood up to climbing and skiing w/o any reason for complaint.
I do have a marmot Gore-Tex alpinist Pant that I got on prodeal at the same time as the jacket above. The Pants have stood up just as well....with just a few crampon snags
They wil be needing replacement at some point...I'll look anywhere but Gore-Tex first. _________________ "Moderate is not the new Low" - Chris Joosen, USFS Lead Snow Ranger (Tuckerman Ravine, White Mountains National Forest)
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but I wait for sales..
