Joined: 02 Mar 2007 Posts: 1922 Location: Nova Scotia
Posted: Fri Mar 02, 2012 10:43 am Post subject:
Pinnah wrote:
NStelemark, you predicting that tubeless rims will entirely obsolete and displace tubed tires?
It is certainly possible, for high end systems. Tubeless are making some inroads in the traditional areas that tubulars were king. They offer some of the feel that makes tubulars popular with less hassle.
For lower end bikes I doubt it, but who knows, it will depend on how it is marketed. _________________ Larry
----------------------------------------------------
NTN is all about Dynamic Performance™
Came for the stoke, stayed for the popcorn.
Tele boot fitting - http://www.nstelemark.com/NSTelemark/Telemark_Boot_Fitting.html
NStelemark, you predicting that tubeless rims will entirely obsolete and displace tubed tires?
It is certainly possible, for high end systems. Tubeless are making some inroads in the traditional areas that tubulars were king. They offer some of the feel that makes tubulars popular with less hassle.
For lower end bikes I doubt it, but who knows, it will depend on how it is marketed.
I've been riding a pair of Challenge Parigi-Roubaix "open tubulars" that I bought off of Rob a while back. WOW! What a tire. I'll probably move to lighter latex tubes this spring but I definitely could using them tubeless.
sorry for the thread drift _________________ Dave "Pinnah" Mann
========================
"It is impossible, or not easy, to do noble acts without the proper equipment."
Aristotle, <<Politics>>, 1323a-b, trans Jowett
All I'm saying is that I think it's reasonable to expect that NTN will chip away at the boundary between (heavy) tele and XCD and as a result, the XCD market will see some loss of product offerings as a result.
You say it like it's a bad thing. Full featured and lighter NTN based bindings for XCD would be the cat's meow. Don't be such a Luddite.
Grant, I'll try to give my thoughts on the Fischer S-Bounds' bundling with NNN Magnums in my response to Aaron.
Aaron, do you really think that NTN will provide a design platform that will answer the needs of XCD skiers?
If I had to distill the boot/binding needs for XCD skiers down to short bullets, I would say the following:
1) Interchange range that allows interchange between burly leather boots like the Fischer BCX 6 BCX 675, Alpina 2250 or Scarpa Wasatch and low cut, light 2 buckle plastic boots like the Excursion and T4.
2) The ability to be skied in a single mode that balances touring and turning performance on par the above mentioned boots and plain pin bindings.
3) Low weight and reliability at least on par with plain pins
Do you really think that there could be an NTN version of, say, the Fischer BCX 6 boot or the Alpina 2250? Do you think it could be done in a way that gives decent single mode skiing performance in a low weight and reliable package? I'm skeptical. Which is to say, I'm open to the possibility, but you'll need to convince me.
BTW, you'll note that I didn't include dual mode touring in my list of XCD needs. In fact, I'm explicitly excluding it. This isn't because I think dual mode touring is bad in any way. But I do see it as one of the emerging key distinctions between XCD skiing and telemark touring.
Grant, the viability of the NNN-Magnum to work as the XCD platform for the future has the same problem going in the other direction. Fischer would have to convince me. Among other things, they would need to get an Excursion class NNN-BC boot to market. The last time somebody tried that was Alpina and the result was tippy toed tele turns, bindings ripped out of skis and reports of broken toe bars. That's a lot of leverage being focused on a relatively small part. I find it curious that Fischer doesn't even offer an NNN-BC version of their BCX 875 boot. Either they fear the system can't take it (some good evidence of this) or that the market won't accept it (some good scars to explain this).
A future I could live with:
NNN => track skiing
75mm => XCD
NTN => tele
with the caveat that XCD <> tele _________________ Dave "Pinnah" Mann
========================
"It is impossible, or not easy, to do noble acts without the proper equipment."
Aristotle, <<Politics>>, 1323a-b, trans Jowett
Joined: 08 Jan 2005 Posts: 3141 Location: Wenatchee
Posted: Fri Mar 02, 2012 12:01 pm Post subject:
Pinnah wrote:
aaron_wright wrote:
Pinnah wrote:
All I'm saying is that I think it's reasonable to expect that NTN will chip away at the boundary between (heavy) tele and XCD and as a result, the XCD market will see some loss of product offerings as a result.
You say it like it's a bad thing. Full featured and lighter NTN based bindings for XCD would be the cat's meow. Don't be such a Luddite.
Grant, I'll try to give my thoughts on the Fischer S-Bounds' bundling with NNN Magnums in my response to Aaron.
Aaron, do you really think that NTN will provide a design platform that will answer the needs of XCD skiers?
If I had to distill the boot/binding needs for XCD skiers down to short bullets, I would say the following:
1) Interchange range that allows interchange between burly leather boots like the Fischer BCX 6 BCX 675, Alpina 2250 or Scarpa Wasatch and low cut, light 2 buckle plastic boots like the Excursion and T4.
2) The ability to be skied in a single mode that balances touring and turning performance on par the above mentioned boots and plain pin bindings.
3) Low weight and reliability at least on par with plain pins
Do you really think that there could be an NTN version of, say, the Fischer BCX 6 boot or the Alpina 2250? Do you think it could be done in a way that gives decent single mode skiing performance in a low weight and reliable package? I'm skeptical. Which is to say, I'm open to the possibility, but you'll need to convince me.
BTW, you'll note that I didn't include dual mode touring in my list of XCD needs. In fact, I'm explicitly excluding it. This isn't because I think dual mode touring is bad in any way. But I do see it as one of the emerging key distinctions between XCD skiing and telemark touring.
Grant, the viability of the NNN-Magnum to work as the XCD platform for the future has the same problem going in the other direction. Fischer would have to convince me. Among other things, they would need to get an Excursion class NNN-BC boot to market. The last time somebody tried that was Alpina and the result was tippy toed tele turns, bindings ripped out of skis and reports of broken toe bars. That's a lot of leverage being focused on a relatively small part. I find it curious that Fischer doesn't even offer an NNN-BC version of their BCX 875 boot. Either they fear the system can't take it (some good evidence of this) or that the market won't accept it (some good scars to explain this).
A future I could live with:
NNN => track skiing
75mm => XCD
NTN => tele
with the caveat that XCD <> tele
You could easily make an Excursion class boot with NTN interface. You could also make a lighter NTN binding with light springs and lose the breaks. This would provide an experience almost like pins but with better control on the down. It would probably weigh about the same as your pins on CRB.
Do you think that NTN would fail for a lighter boot like the BCX 875, or even lighter BCX 675? (I would think the flexibility of the sole would muck up the duck butt.)
Do you think it would be possible to make a version of the NTN that is as light and reliable as plain pins (no CRB)? _________________ Dave "Pinnah" Mann
========================
"It is impossible, or not easy, to do noble acts without the proper equipment."
Aristotle, <<Politics>>, 1323a-b, trans Jowett
Joined: 08 Jan 2005 Posts: 3141 Location: Wenatchee
Posted: Fri Mar 02, 2012 12:16 pm Post subject:
Pinnah wrote:
Aaron,
Do you think that NTN would fail for a lighter boot like the BCX 875, or even lighter BCX 675? (I would think the flexibility of the sole would muck up the duck butt.)
Do you think it would be possible to make a version of the NTN that is as light and reliable as plain pins (no CRB)?
I think if you are sticking to fabric or leather pins would be the best solution. I don't think you could make an NTN binding that is as light as plain pins, but you could make a simplified version that drops the release and breaks that uses very light springs and a less beefy flex plate and it wouldn't weigh to much more.
You should really try NTN if you haven't. If you could get your hands on the NTN version of the Kenai next year I think you'd be surprised how closely you could set it up to feel like pins.
I don't doubt that the Kenai on a light set of NTN might feel like my old soft flexing T1s on 3pin CRBs.
But that Kenai is pretty darn tall boot. I'm happy to be able to use my T1s on my XCD skis, but I don't consider it an XCD boot - not in the same way that I do boots like the Excursion.
The Luddite fear that I have is that NTN and NNN-BC Magnum will force a split: NTN for Excusion boots and up and NNN-BC for boots like the BCX 675 and down.
That would force me to draw that line of incompatibility through my quiver of skis that I'd really prefer to not draw.
So for me, the issue isn't how good the NTN skis. The issue is, can it span the full range of XCD gear. _________________ Dave "Pinnah" Mann
========================
"It is impossible, or not easy, to do noble acts without the proper equipment."
Aristotle, <<Politics>>, 1323a-b, trans Jowett
Joined: 24 Jan 2005 Posts: 6978 Location: Castle Rock, CO
Posted: Fri Mar 02, 2012 12:39 pm Post subject:
Pinnah, I would bet that if you weighed over 175 pounds and set up the springs for your release you would not like NTN even a little. It would be way more active then anything you are used to. Considering the type of skiing you seem to prefer where you live that extra activity would be of little benefit and they wont feel like 3 pins no matter what boot you use.
There are always going to be people at all levels who prefer a more neutral binding that will not like NTN especially if they are heavy enough to need a higher spring setting.
I have over a 100 days on NTN and like it but if I come off any of my older 3 pin set ups NTN feels very restrictive for the first half run or so. A lot of people are never going to like this.
Joined: 08 Jan 2005 Posts: 3141 Location: Wenatchee
Posted: Fri Mar 02, 2012 1:08 pm Post subject:
James wrote:
Pinnah, I would bet that if you weighed over 175 pounds and set up the springs for your release you would not like NTN even a little. It would be way more active then anything you are used to. Considering the type of skiing you seem to prefer where you live that extra activity would be of little benefit and they wont feel like 3 pins no matter what boot you use.
There are always going to be people at all levels who prefer a more neutral binding that will not like NTN especially if they are heavy enough to need a higher spring setting.
I have over a 100 days on NTN and like it but if I come off any of my older 3 pin set ups NTN feels very restrictive for the first half run or so. A lot of people are never going to like this.
While I don't think NTN is like pins, I don't really feel it's an active binding, nothing like HHs on higher settings or O1/O2 with the stiffer cartridges. If anything I think NTN is more like G3 bindings with great lateral control. I don't really notice when switching between pins and NTN day to day. I'm 220# and use red power tubes set on 2.5. It's amazing how different peoples experiences are.
Joined: 02 Mar 2007 Posts: 1922 Location: Nova Scotia
Posted: Fri Mar 02, 2012 3:21 pm Post subject:
aaron_wright wrote:
James wrote:
Pinnah, I would bet that if you weighed over 175 pounds and set up the springs for your release you would not like NTN even a little. It would be way more active then anything you are used to. Considering the type of skiing you seem to prefer where you live that extra activity would be of little benefit and they wont feel like 3 pins no matter what boot you use.
There are always going to be people at all levels who prefer a more neutral binding that will not like NTN especially if they are heavy enough to need a higher spring setting.
I have over a 100 days on NTN and like it but if I come off any of my older 3 pin set ups NTN feels very restrictive for the first half run or so. A lot of people are never going to like this.
While I don't think NTN is like pins, I don't really feel it's an active binding, nothing like HHs on higher settings or O1/O2 with the stiffer cartridges. If anything I think NTN is more like G3 bindings with great lateral control. I don't really notice when switching between pins and NTN day to day. I'm 220# and use red power tubes set on 2.5. It's amazing how different peoples experiences are.
I certainly agree with this. It is powerful but not as active as HH. In my mind this is certainly why bellows flex is so important in NTN boot design. _________________ Larry
----------------------------------------------------
NTN is all about Dynamic Performance™
Came for the stoke, stayed for the popcorn.
Tele boot fitting - http://www.nstelemark.com/NSTelemark/Telemark_Boot_Fitting.html
Joined: 24 Jan 2005 Posts: 6978 Location: Castle Rock, CO
Posted: Fri Mar 02, 2012 10:37 pm Post subject:
aaron_wright wrote:
If anything I think NTN is more like G3 bindings with great lateral control. I don't really notice when switching between pins and NTN day to day. I'm 220# and use red power tubes set on 2.5. It's amazing how different peoples experiences are.
I ski red 2.5 and would of said you were nuts but I went back to my older TX Pros today after skiing just the newer Comps or Evos for quite a while and the difference is more like what you say.
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