Apparently, they were standing within a pretty dense tree line. It's a little too early for all the ??????????????'s. These guys/gals aren't casual tourists. With a little patience and time for the specifics of the official report, I'm sure there'll be much learned from this. In the meantime, I hope we can all resist the impulse for arm chairing.
It's a little too early for all the ??????????????'s.
Sorry, please let me know when I'm allowed to ask questions here. Thanks.
You are 'allowed' at any time, mark is simply suggesting, and with his usual gentility, that none of us was there and that we have very little information which would allow us to learn what went wrong. At this point my guess is that a large and very experienced group was pushing hard on a powder day, and that their decision making included an approach which limited the death and destruction when tragedy struck. Until I know more that's good enough for me. I'm not even sure I need to know more actually. Shit happens, trust me, even inbounds on controlled terrain where go/no go decisions are being made for others by the very best in the business.
Let's face it: Skiing fresh powder in big mountains is not for the faint of heart. That's part of what makes it 'life lived in a blaze of reality.' Those who are uncomfortable getting close to the flame should consider leaving those that are the hell alone. Dontcha think?
That being said, Mitch, there are many lessons to learn from others mistakes.
Sidecountry,backcountry on a high hazard day?
Parking your group in a runout zone while others ski above you?
"Experienced" skiers? Sure. Good calls?
I know these are avy 101 lessons, but discussing them post-accident does give others clues on how not to make the same mistakes. _________________ "She said, Boy, without a doubt, have to quit your mess and straighten out...you could die down here, be just another accident statistic."
Joined: 04 May 2007 Posts: 474 Location: Foot of Claremont Canyon
Posted: Mon Feb 20, 2012 4:45 pm Post subject:
telechakra_3 wrote:
I've always just played it safe by NOT doing the high country when the warning signs are clearly seen.... relying instead on my inner voice that guides me into a deeper understanding of what's safe and what is not safe.
telechakra_3 wrote:
"We felt we were in the right place"
???????????
You've done what feels right to you, and the avalanche victims did what felt right to them, knowing there was risk. For now I'm guessing that those choices, though different, were both right for the people who made them. Maybe more facts will tell us otherwise, but let's wait and see.
Joined: 24 May 2005 Posts: 327 Location: Tahoey, Socialist CA
Posted: Mon Feb 20, 2012 4:57 pm Post subject:
The most telling quote of the articles I've read was at the end of the update from Powder Mag where Kieth Carlson says, "the temperature rose quickly just before noon, likely adding to the instability."
It is very easy to get suckered by fresh snow and early impressions and forget to account for changes that are occuring at the moment. Been guilty of not seeing that myself and getting caught when I should have known better.
Very sad. Hard to think straight when the skiing is so good and the powder so rare. _________________ There ain't NO turn like TELE!!! - www.earnyourturns.com
Joined: 06 Nov 2009 Posts: 53 Location: Columbia River Gorge, USA
Posted: Mon Feb 20, 2012 4:59 pm Post subject:
fogey wrote:
telechakra_3 wrote:
I've always just played it safe by NOT doing the high country when the warning signs are clearly seen.... relying instead on my inner voice that guides me into a deeper understanding of what's safe and what is not safe.
telechakra_3 wrote:
"We felt we were in the right place"
???????????
You've done what feels right to you, and the avalanche victims did what felt right to them, knowing there was risk. For now I'm guessing that those choices, though different, were both right for the people who made them. Maybe more facts will tell us otherwise, but let's wait and see.
What I'm questioning here is very simple. What is it that I need to learn from this very tragic situation? What is being sold from this very tragic situation? Most important, what influenced the decision making process that caused these people to believe they were "safe" when they were clearly not safe?
Joined: 19 Jan 2005 Posts: 3356 Location: The bull's eye
Posted: Mon Feb 20, 2012 5:07 pm Post subject:
Media reports are usually misleading, but it did indicate one skier held onto a tree. I will probably change my behaviour in light of this - rather than just parking myself in a safety zone, I will be looking to latch onto anchors, if available.
Of course, when we were parking in the middle of avalanche zones, we already knew to hang onto the trees. _________________ I refuse to engage in a battle of wits with someone who is clearly unarmed. Target practice, on the other hand . . .
I've often wondered why skiers risk their lives in avalanche country when conditions are sketchy. Are the few moments of exhiliration coming down the mtn. in fresh, untracked powder better than all the pleasure and enjoyment that one might enjoy during the rest of one's life. It hardly seems like a reasonable tradeoff. Five minutes of fun in exchange for the rest of one's life.
I don't know much about avalanches, so I don't ski on slopes where they are likely under conditions where they are possible, which is to say, I don't ski the backcountry on steep slopes. In face, the only time I am in the backcountry I am on cross country skies skiing up forest service hiking trails. I'll get the powder at the resorts. I may be missing out on the backcountry powder experience, but so what. I enjoy life too much to cut it short with risky behavior.
I suspect that people don't really weigh the dangers where death is a possibility. They assume that they won't die, but we can see that they sometimes do. Is it really worth it to participate in very hazardous activities? To my way of thinking, no.
I feel sad when people die doing something that brings them pleasure, especially when a little more caution might have prevented their deaths.
Joined: 19 Jan 2005 Posts: 3356 Location: The bull's eye
Posted: Mon Feb 20, 2012 5:57 pm Post subject:
this thread is going 30 pages, minimum _________________ I refuse to engage in a battle of wits with someone who is clearly unarmed. Target practice, on the other hand . . .
Joined: 04 May 2007 Posts: 474 Location: Foot of Claremont Canyon
Posted: Mon Feb 20, 2012 6:11 pm Post subject:
telechakra_3 wrote:
Most important, what influenced the decision making process that caused these people to believe they were "safe" when they were clearly not safe?
My point is that these skiers were willing to take a risk that you would not take. I'm actually much closer to you on the risk spectrum than to them, but that's not a basis for passing judgment. Climbers fall, boaters drown, road bikers are killed by cars. What we have heard so far is that an experienced group, including people familiar with the terrain, based on a regional avalanche forecast that they believed to be "considerable", taking precautions, chose to ski. Safe enough for you or me? No. Safe enough for them? Certainly at this point, we can't say.
The most telling quote of the articles I've read was at the end of the update from Powder Mag where Kieth Carlson says, "the temperature rose quickly just before noon, likely adding to the instability."
It is very easy to get suckered by fresh snow and early impressions and forget to account for changes that are occuring at the moment. Been guilty of not seeing that myself and getting caught when I should have known better.
Very sad. Hard to think straight when the skiing is so good and the powder so rare.
this is one of the sanest inputs I have ever read after a tragedy like this on this board
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