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Paul Lutes
Joined: 06 Dec 2004
Posts: 3391
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 Posted: Thu Oct 01, 2009 2:59 pm Post subject: |
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| Randy wrote: | I read claims 15 and 16 in the patent documents -- I speculate the claim has to do with the fact that on the O1 you push on the mechnism in the same direction (down) to change modes.
The Ascent and Voile mechanisms you push a lever left or right. With the 7TM you flip a level back and forth and with the NTN you lift the lever to tour and push it back down to ski.
I haven't held an Axl -- how does it's tour switch work -- and isn't this one of the things 22 designs was revising between beta and production? |
Hard to tell - the only picture of the updated version I've seen is not exactly illuminating on that very point; could go either way.
Last edited by Paul Lutes on Thu Oct 01, 2009 5:08 pm; edited 1 time in total |
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adrenalated
Joined: 11 Jan 2005
Posts: 3765
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| Posted: Thu Oct 01, 2009 4:01 pm Post subject: |
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| Randy wrote: | I read claims 15 and 16 in the patent documents -- I speculate the claim has to do with the fact that on the O1 you push on the mechnism in the same direction (down) to change modes.
The Ascent and Voile mechanisms you push a lever left or right. With the 7TM you flip a level back and forth and with the NTN you lift the lever to tour and push it back down to ski.
I haven't held an Axl -- how does it's tour switch work -- and isn't this one of the things 22 designs was revising between beta and production? |
The beta Axl switch pushes forward and back. The patent describes a rotating switch; the beta Axl's moves linearly.
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stevesliva
Joined: 11 Dec 2004
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Location: SEA
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| Posted: Thu Oct 01, 2009 4:25 pm Post subject: |
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| Randy wrote: | | I read claims 15 and 16 in the patent documents -- I speculate the claim has to do with the fact that on the O1 you push on the mechnism in the same direction (down) to change modes |
You're right. When you go to claim #1, it says the force to toggle back and forth is "in substantially the same direction" |
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stevesliva
Joined: 11 Dec 2004
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| Posted: Thu Oct 01, 2009 4:29 pm Post subject: |
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| adrenalated wrote: | | The beta Axl switch pushes forward and back. The patent describes a rotating switch; the beta Axl's moves linearly. |
I don't think the claims are written to require one or the other, any more than it's written to require a ski pole and not a finger, but Randy was right in pointing out that the base claims for the mechanism and method do seem to insist upon the same switch method for both transitions.
But, then again, claim 12 (not dependent on other claims) merely says a "pushing force" is required, and that one claim alone is enough to make the whole thing worth a jury trial, if it can't be settled any other way. |
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adrenalated
Joined: 11 Jan 2005
Posts: 3765
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| Posted: Thu Oct 01, 2009 4:59 pm Post subject: |
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| stevesliva wrote: | | Randy wrote: | | I read claims 15 and 16 in the patent documents -- I speculate the claim has to do with the fact that on the O1 you push on the mechnism in the same direction (down) to change modes |
You're right. When you go to claim #1, it says the force to toggle back and forth is "in substantially the same direction" |
| stevesliva wrote: | | I don't think the claims are written to require one or the other, any more than it's written to require a ski pole and not a finger, but Randy was right in pointing out that the base claims for the mechanism and method do seem to insist upon the same switch method for both transitions. |
The Axl isn't the same direction though. It requires force in 180 degree opposite directions to switch modes. It also does explicitly say "dual position rotating switch."
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!ski
Joined: 06 Dec 2004
Posts: 6104
Location: Boulder CO
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| Posted: Thu Oct 01, 2009 5:09 pm Post subject: |
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The real problem, is that twentytwodesigns has gone from a largely
mail order business to having product available at REI and
EMS etc etc.
Kinda odd - EMS has hammerheads and Black Diamond bindings ...
but don't have NTN yet this year ....
Must frost many a behind. 
Once big company sells your product X (and likes the returns)
they are more likely to carry your next product Y.
Maybe twentytwodesigns has plans to expand beyond
just telemark bindings ...
A patent is just the right to sue and crush your competition. 
-r |
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Paul Lutes
Joined: 06 Dec 2004
Posts: 3391
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| Posted: Thu Oct 01, 2009 5:10 pm Post subject: |
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Since the Berg's picture isn't clear on the movement of the updated version's tour switch motion, I think we have to wait for further information.
... unless someone's actually fondled an updated version???? |
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stevesliva
Joined: 11 Dec 2004
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| Posted: Thu Oct 01, 2009 5:13 pm Post subject: |
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| adrenalated wrote: | | It also does explicitly say "dual position rotating switch." |
Only dependent claims like #6 and #13 say that. To play the devil's advocate, you can ignore them all and pretend the entire thing is claim #12. The claims play out in such a way that something like claim #1 and/or #12 is the great new idea, and the dependent claims 2-11 and 13-14 are the specific aspects of their implementation, but not required for infringement. |
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Randy
Joined: 06 Dec 2004
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Location: The Death Star
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| Posted: Thu Oct 01, 2009 6:36 pm Post subject: |
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Maybe the attorneys are thinking about claim 19 -- where the mode switch force is transmitted "via ski pole"
I use my ski poles to switch modes on my Voile Switchbacks -- I wonder if BD wants royalties from Voile as well. |
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adrenalated
Joined: 11 Jan 2005
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| Posted: Thu Oct 01, 2009 7:52 pm Post subject: |
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| stevesliva wrote: | | adrenalated wrote: | | It also does explicitly say "dual position rotating switch." |
Only dependent claims like #6 and #13 say that. To play the devil's advocate, you can ignore them all and pretend the entire thing is claim #12. The claims play out in such a way that something like claim #1 and/or #12 is the great new idea, and the dependent claims 2-11 and 13-14 are the specific aspects of their implementation, but not required for infringement. |
Gotcha, that makes sense.
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x-eff
Joined: 09 Apr 2007
Posts: 1479
Location: Valmorel, France
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| Posted: Fri Oct 02, 2009 8:47 pm Post subject: |
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What's that ?
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Dré dans l'pentu !!
"Why can't people here be a bit more serious and why are so many posts utterly bs?" (Telesaint) |
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Paul Lutes
Joined: 06 Dec 2004
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| Posted: Fri Oct 02, 2009 9:49 pm Post subject: |
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| x-eff wrote: | What's that ?
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That is the one and only pic that I've seen ... and it looks to me like, even though it has a round hole in it, that metal front piece slides forward and backwards just like on the beta version, with the round hole simply being a leverage point for your pole tip.
but i wouldn't swear to it. |
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stevesliva
Joined: 11 Dec 2004
Posts: 10121
Location: SEA
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| Posted: Sat Oct 03, 2009 1:41 am Post subject: |
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That's a thing of beauty. When did they change the heel?
[edit]Ooooooh, they're making a little more room for the springs. Neat.[/edit] |
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Flyoverland Escapee
Joined: 06 Dec 2004
Posts: 2722
Location: Northeast Washington State
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| Posted: Mon Oct 12, 2009 10:10 pm Post subject: |
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So... has anybody received the beta replacement yet?
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Paul Lutes
Joined: 06 Dec 2004
Posts: 3391
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| Posted: Mon Oct 12, 2009 11:21 pm Post subject: |
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| Not scheduled until end of this month, early next month .... so no. |
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