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bwells
Joined: 04 Mar 2005
Posts: 2666
Location: Las Sierras
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 Posted: Thu May 08, 2008 6:32 pm Post subject: |
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| hutguy wrote: | | There are of course differences in left and right philosophy, but paranoia is paranoia not matter what your political leaning. |
That is why the "elitist" charge is such political dynamite, on either side of the political spectrum. There is a very deep fear, among all of us, of being used by political, social, or intellectual elites for ends that we didn't sign off on.
The polio vaccine is a classic example. There are two kinds of vaccine, live (oral) and dead (injected). The live vaccine was more effective against all the strains of polio floating around the world, but it carried a small risk of infection. Policy makers (intellectual elites) made the decision to use the live vaccine because, doing the math, they found that fewer people would end up with polio if they used the live vaccine.
This was small comfort to those few who ended up getting polio from the vaccine. And the story is used today by folks who want to stir up fear of vaccines, so maybe if the policy makers had taken paranoia against vaccines into their calculations, they woulda made a different call. |
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skookumchuck
Joined: 15 Dec 2004
Posts: 6498
Location: Blue Canadian Rockies
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| Posted: Thu May 08, 2008 7:07 pm Post subject: |
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| bwells wrote: | | hutguy wrote: | | There are of course differences in left and right philosophy, but paranoia is paranoia not matter what your political leaning. |
The polio vaccine is a classic example. There are two kinds of vaccine, live (oral) and dead (injected). The live vaccine was more effective against all the strains of polio floating around the world, but it carried a small risk of infection. Policy makers (intellectual elites) made the decision to use the live vaccine because, doing the math, they found that fewer people would end up with polio if they used the live vaccine.
This was small comfort to those few who ended up getting polio from the vaccine. And the story is used today by folks who want to stir up fear of vaccines, so maybe if the policy makers had taken paranoia against vaccines into their calculations, they woulda made a different call. |
The OPV is cheaper for mass immunization campaigns especially in third world countries. I don't know how taking paranoia into account would help when the Imams in Nigeria are saying it is a plot to sterilize Muslims. I don't think they would be any more amenable to the IPV. |
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bwells
Joined: 04 Mar 2005
Posts: 2666
Location: Las Sierras
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| Posted: Thu May 08, 2008 7:14 pm Post subject: |
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| skookumchuck wrote: | | The OPV is cheaper for mass immunization campaigns especially in third world countries. I don't know how taking paranoia into account would help when the Imams in Nigeria are saying it is a plot to sterilize Muslims. I don't think they would be any more amenable to the IPV. |
Certainly they would not. But factual evidence that supports their paranoia makes it harder than it needs to be.
And wtf does the cost have to do with anything? Are you saying that it is ok to infect a few kids with polio because the OPV is cheaper?
My understanding is that the OPV was more effective than IPV gainst all polio strains. That is the only defensible argument for its use. The cost argument is just plain bullshit, and if policy makers are deciding on that basis, then I will agree with the Imams (  ). |
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skookumchuck
Joined: 15 Dec 2004
Posts: 6498
Location: Blue Canadian Rockies
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| Posted: Thu May 08, 2008 7:19 pm Post subject: |
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I was just reading an article about polio vaccination in India where they were blaming the failure to eradicate the disease on the exclusive use of OPV. One of the reasons for using OPV was it was cheaper when you are giving gazillions of doses in a poor country.
Anyway here is the article.
http://www.issuesinmedicalethics.org/134cv117.html |
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NoOneInParticular
Joined: 09 Feb 2005
Posts: 1886
Location: VT
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| Posted: Thu May 08, 2008 7:52 pm Post subject: Re: Vaccine-Nation |
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| twopass wrote: | | Quote: | See the truth about the dangers of vaccines and their direct relationship to autoimmune diseases, infections, allergies and a massive increase of developmental learning and behavioral disorders in children, such as Autism.
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Trailer.... |
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twopass
Joined: 07 Dec 2004
Posts: 4710
Location: DUCKBILLS FOREVER! Sterilize the NTN'ers!
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| Posted: Thu May 08, 2008 7:58 pm Post subject: |
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| nils wrote: | | haven't met twopass.... |
heh heh... 
| Quote: | Jenny McCarthy isn't your typical blonde bombshell. She's gone from Playboy model, to author, to advocate mom.
Around the age of 2 and a half, her son Evan started having seizures. It turns out, he was autistic. Jenny wrote a book about it called 'Louder Than Words: A Mother's Journey in Healing Autism.' She also became a spokesperson for 'Talk About Curing Autism.' |
....with eye-candy...
_________________
"Vancouver has increasingly become a place of political posturing, hipster disengagement and a fetishizing of spirituality that borders on flakiness." Oh yeah, and security cameras eh? |
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bwells
Joined: 04 Mar 2005
Posts: 2666
Location: Las Sierras
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| Posted: Thu May 08, 2008 8:27 pm Post subject: |
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| skookumchuck wrote: | I was just reading an article about polio vaccination in India where they were blaming the failure to eradicate the disease on the exclusive use of OPV. One of the reasons for using OPV was it was cheaper when you are giving gazillions of doses in a poor country.
Anyway here is the article.
http://www.issuesinmedicalethics.org/134cv117.html |
I can understand the advantage of OPV vs IPV on the basis of the fact that IPV requires trained medical workers to administer and OPV doesn't, but cost per dose as a basis is just friggin wrong.
To me, what that article highlights is the failure of the policy makers in India. For the political class to rely solely on the OPV, and to cancel plans to produce IPV smells of incompetence at best and caste warfare at worst. |
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skookumchuck
Joined: 15 Dec 2004
Posts: 6498
Location: Blue Canadian Rockies
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| Posted: Thu May 08, 2008 8:46 pm Post subject: |
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| bwells wrote: |
I can understand the advantage of OPV vs IPV on the basis of the fact that IPV requires trained medical workers to administer and OPV doesn't, but cost per dose as a basis is just friggin wrong.
To me, what that article highlights is the failure of the policy makers in India. For the political class to rely solely on the OPV, and to cancel plans to produce IPV smells of incompetence at best and caste warfare at worst. |
Poltics. Would India be better off with generals in charge? |
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SteveK
Joined: 19 Jan 2005
Posts: 2296
Location: The bull's eye
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| Posted: Thu May 08, 2008 8:53 pm Post subject: |
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| Anybody know where you can get measles or mumps or rubella shots that aren't part of an MMR combo? |
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bwells
Joined: 04 Mar 2005
Posts: 2666
Location: Las Sierras
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| Posted: Thu May 08, 2008 9:20 pm Post subject: |
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| SteveK wrote: | | Anybody know where you can get measles or mumps or rubella shots that aren't part of an MMR combo? |
We asked our doc about it, and he told us that it was possible. I asked him what he did with his kids, and he told me "I gave them the MMR." So we went ahead with it. No ill effects yet.
A friend of my sister is a pediatrician who has come to believe in the link between MMR and autism. I'll see if I can find out what he is administering (if anything) these days. It might take a while (he's a busy guy and I barely know him), but I'll try to find out. |
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SteveK
Joined: 19 Jan 2005
Posts: 2296
Location: The bull's eye
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| Posted: Thu May 08, 2008 10:06 pm Post subject: |
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I'm guessing that was about 5 years ago? When the kids were infants/toddlers?
If so, how many vaccines were on the menu back then?
Hep B?
Mennigicoccal C?
Pnuemococcal?
DTap/IPV/HIB?
No chicken pox/varicella at that time? |
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bwells
Joined: 04 Mar 2005
Posts: 2666
Location: Las Sierras
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| Posted: Thu May 08, 2008 10:18 pm Post subject: |
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| SteveK wrote: | I'm guessing that was about 5 years ago? When the kids were infants/toddlers?
If so, how many vaccines were on the menu back then?
Hep B?
Mennigicoccal C?
Pnuemococcal?
DTap/IPV/HIB?
No chicken pox/varicella at that time? |
Don't recall. I'd have to pull the kids' immunization records to find out. In general, we've gone with the doc's reco. We chose our doc based his unwillingness to medicate, so I tend to trust his recommendations. The only one I really questioned him on was the MMR, because of what we had heard. |
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Baaahb
Joined: 07 Jan 2005
Posts: 12341
Location: Ponderosa
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| Posted: Fri May 09, 2008 4:30 pm Post subject: |
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actually, hutguy, I'm more of a closet conservative 
nobody ever said vaccines were fully safe.
in freak accidents, you can also get killed by wearing your seat belt.
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embrace your inner maya |
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twopass
Joined: 07 Dec 2004
Posts: 4710
Location: DUCKBILLS FOREVER! Sterilize the NTN'ers!
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| Posted: Fri May 09, 2008 7:59 pm Post subject: |
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_________________
"Vancouver has increasingly become a place of political posturing, hipster disengagement and a fetishizing of spirituality that borders on flakiness." Oh yeah, and security cameras eh? |
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skookumchuck
Joined: 15 Dec 2004
Posts: 6498
Location: Blue Canadian Rockies
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| Posted: Sat May 10, 2008 3:38 am Post subject: |
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| twopass wrote: | |
Some pretty questionable advice there.
100 000 IU of Vitamin A is above the chronic toxic dose of 25-50 000 IU/day for thirty days. Its only for six days, but why risk it?
And colloidal silver can make you turn blue
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