Joined: 08 Mar 2007 Posts: 98 Location: Somewhere in CA - Eastern Sierra last time I checked
Posted: Thu Nov 15, 2007 12:55 am Post subject: The NTN: Chicks Dig It
So, I took the NTN set up out for a few runs on Monday. For better or worse, I've written my thoughts down to share with you all. Here's the story of an intermediate skier taking a few runs on the NTN.
Some Stats
Height: 5’10”
Weight: 150 lbs
Shoe Size: 9.5 Wms./Mondo 25.5
Days on Telemark Skis: 130ish
Level Skier: Intermediate
NTN Binding: Orange Binding with Green Cartridges
NTN Boot: Scarpa Terminator X, Size 27 & Crispi EVO, Size 27.5
Ski: K2 World Piste, 174 and Mitch's Karhu (? sorry don't remember which ones they were).
Where I Got It
Mammoth Mountaineering Supply, Mammoth Lakes , CA
Experience with Sales Staff
I give these guys an A-. Despite having just received and mounted the binding on skis that morning, they knew their stuff. Since I was the first customer to demo the set up, there was a bit of trial and error but Brian and Ryan worked together to get the system set up for me in less than 15 minutes. They knew the key differences between the Scarpa and Crispi boots and Brian had skied the setup at the OR demo last winter. Ryan knew exactly how to set the DIN on the bindings for my weight and showed me how to do it so that I could adjust it when I got home. The bindings come with a chart which references weight in kilos; already printed and on the workbench was a kilos-to-pounds conversion chart. I walked out with some brand spankin’ new K2 World Piste skis (length 174), a pair of Scarpa boots in a 27 (with my 25.5 liner in the shell) and a pair of Crispi boots in a 27.5 (w/out liner so I could use my own). I had the orange NTN binding with the soft cartridges.
Now, seeing as Rottefella sent off the NTN to their retailers with minimal information and product training, these guys did an awesome job. They didn’t expect to send their first NTN demo out for a few weeks but they had already done some homework. They don’t get an A+ only because it was their first time helping a customer with the setup and they had to figure a few things out along the way.
Taking it to the Mountain
The next morning I arranged to meet Mitch at Mammoth’s Main Lodge at 10am. He was a little late so I decided to figure out how to work the binding myself and take a few runs. After reading Dobish’s review, I was feeling pretty apprehensive about the whole thing and a bit worried about taking it out without Mitch and his expertise right there with me. Could I figure it out? Was I strong/heavy enough to ski this boot and binding? Was I even good enough? I started questioning the whole thing and had to talk myself out of walking back to the car to grab my T2x’s and Hammerhead- mounted TStix from the car.
After taking a deep breath, I stepped easily into the bindings. I had the advantage of watching it being done a few times but it was shockingly easy. I pushed the lever back down with the grip end of my ski pole, had a “this is too good to be true” moment, and jumped into the lift line. Getting into the NTN: “B” for being almost as easy as they say it is. Consistent with other feedback I’ve seen, the lever was a bit difficult to push down and pull up. I was not able to pull it up with the grip end of my ski pole and had to reach down to do it. I expect that this gets easier over time and with use since Mitch was able to do it by the end of the day by just opening and closing the lever several times to break it in.
When I got to the top of the lift I cranked down my boots and hoped that the too-large size wouldn’t feel swimmy. It did. The first three turns were tough. The boot was so big my back ski was chattering like crazy. I don't weight my back foot enough and I was able to mostly fix the problem by just sitting back a bit more, but the boots were still pretty uncomfortable.
The boots felt new. Really new. It reminded me of my first day on my T2x’s when the bellows were still stiff and needed to be broken in. However, the bindings were easy and agile. I tried some quick turns and some wider carvy turns and both felt great (minus the boot issues). Smooth and simple just like in my everyday bindings. Easy to flex but with better stability side to side for easy turn transitions.
Back at the lift I met up with Mitch, Erik and Big Tim’s son Cory and decided to switch out my boots and give the Crispi a whirl. I was hoping that the fourth buckle might help the fit, even though the Crispi’s were a half size larger than the Scarpa’s. I was right. The Crispi boot is a bit narrower and the fourth buckle really helped the fit. My foot no longer had room to move side-to-side and turning became much easier. The weird thing was, my boots started to slip out of the binding with the Crispi boots on. When I flexed the boot to turn, it would pull away from the ridge on the binding and cause the binding to release. I think there are a few considerations here:
1. The DIN settings (or whatever we're calling them) are a bit off. Rottefella may have made them lighter than necessary to ensure that the bindings would release easily (or too easily).
2. The new Crispi boots were incredibly difficult to flex. Maybe as I was muscling the boot into turning, the binding was overly strained and released.
3. The springs loosened over time. This was not the case as the spring settings hadn’t moved when I checked.
After my boots popped out of the binding, Mitch suggested that I try his skis. With their red spring cartridges (the third stiffest), his demo version binding was not set up for release and the bindings felt significantly more active than the bindings on the demo K2’s which were set for release at my weight. This coupled with the challenging flex of the Crispi boots, meant that I had to really put my weight on my back ski to flex the boot. According to Mitch, this was a great thing and actually helped my skiing quite a bit. By my fourth and last run of the day I felt great and totally comfortable.
So, the moral of the story is that the binding is easy to ski and really easy to put on and take off in resort conditions. Overall, I was quite happy with it and I’m putting some thought into buying a set up if the 26.5 boot fits reasonably well. It shouldn’t take any more work or adjustment to ski it than moving from any other binding to another. If the bindings are properly set for your weight, flexing the springs should not be an issue for you whether you are 125 pounds or 225 pounds. I see this as a great option for both men and women and certainly don't feel that it is an advanced set of equipment that beginner and intermediate skiers would find overwhelming. In fact, I think beginner and intermediate skiers will get a lot out of the ease of use and stability of the set up.
My difficulty was with the boots. Obviously fit was an issue and a disappointment. I wish my size was available but I’m going to try on the 26.5 (likely the narrower Crispi if I see that the bellows break in on the demo boots) and hope my liner is close enough that it’ll work. The brand new boots were tough to flex, the Crispi more so than the Scarpa. Even after just one run the flex improved in both boots. I took a peek at Mitch’s boots and the bellows were super easy to flex. I think it’s just a matter of breaking in a new boot. As these demos get used more, they’ll give a more accurate representation of how the boot/binding combo should feel.
My biggest disappointment was trying to get the bindings back on after they released in deeper snow. My hope for the NTN was that it would be simple and quick (no bending over and feeling unsteady, as happens when trying to kick my foot into my 75mm bindings). Instead I felt disappointed as I swept snow from inside of the binding to be sure that my boot would fit into the toe piece and I tried to create a solid, flat spot in the snow that would allow me to put enough weight on my foot for the boot to settle in. It took a long time and had all of the drawbacks of dealing with an alpine binding in the same conditions. This is probably something that just takes some practice...like the first few times I tried to put on my 75mm tele bindings while desperately trying not to fall over.
After all is said and done, when I go back to my 75mm boots and bindings, I'll feel a little disappointed... like something's missing. The difference won't be as extreme as stepping back into a leather boot after skiing plastic, but the next time I bend down to secure my 75mm binding to my boot, I know I'll miss the step in feature and the smooth turns the NTN offers. Plus, let's face it, it looks sleek and I am always into that.
Note from Mitch: Here is a short video (1 minute) I shot of Cate taking a few spins in the NTN. Not bad for being in brand new boots that were two sizes too big, and on unfamiliar skis, in new bindings, and all on someone who hasn't exactly been tele skiing since the stone age, like Tim and myself.
It was a fun morning on the mountain, with a small crowd and what might be the best snow we'll get for awhile.
Joined: 06 Dec 2004 Posts: 8196 Location: People's Republic of A**holia
Posted: Thu Nov 15, 2007 1:13 am Post subject:
Cate, thanks for that thoughtful review.
It's really interesting, with all the crazy stuff going on here with NTN, it seems abundantly apparent to me how perception plays a role. Perception on the part of the "reviewer" and perception on the part of the reader.
You experienced some negative, non-revolutionary things. You had to bend over to put the binding on, but that was minor to you. Others were more disappointed with that. You had issues with boot flex and with pre-releasing. Some might have been really put off by that, but it didn't seem to phase you.
I'm noting this because people have been attacking Greg and dobish for saying negative things about the NTN. However, I just reread Greg's observations, and he had a lot of positive things to say, yet people chose to focus on the negative things he noted. Perhaps it is due to the overall tenor; your overall tenor was very positive, with some caveats, while the overall tenor of Greg and dobish's observations was that it did some things good, some things not as advertised, and in general they reserved judgment.
I think someone could do a psychological study based solely on the NTN and this site! _________________ "anecdotes are fine assbaggery is not"
"I don't really think she's trolling, more like tra-la-la-la-ling."
"I'm comfortable misreading the tone of posts in a way which suits me."
"Alas, I've been born a Sisyphus for love."
Joined: 06 Dec 2004 Posts: 796 Location: solana beach, CA
Posted: Thu Nov 15, 2007 1:31 am Post subject:
forget the NTN.....chucky is looking forward to skiing with Cate this year.!
mitch's camera work made it actually look like real snow! _________________ don't believe the hype!
Joined: 29 Jun 2005 Posts: 4039 Location: Riding my unicycle
Posted: Thu Nov 15, 2007 1:34 am Post subject:
Hey Kate, thanks for a thoughtful review. I was thinking that maybe the variation in the reviews is due to how ready each person is to accept a new path
Mine will be here Friday, might get a day on the strip of death this Sunday, otherwise it's a Thanksgiving day opener for me!
...people have been attacking Greg and dobish for saying negative things about the NTN. However, I just reread Greg's observations, and he had a lot of positive things to say, yet people chose to focus on the negative things he noted. Perhaps it is due to the overall tenor; your overall tenor was very positive, with some caveats, while the overall tenor of Greg and dobish's observations was that it did some things good, some things not as advertised, and in general they reserved judgment.
Danno, who are you trying to kid? Dobish gave the NTN a grade for chrissake, and here is Greg supposed "reserved judgment" that was the source of much of the disagreement in that infamous thread where Greg came under fire:
I do think there will be lots of folks that will be really happy with the NTN:
-> Those who have been frustrated with binding adjustments (like cartridges always coming loose) and want a system that fits consistently every time
-> Those who do not care for really active bindings such as the Hammerhead, 01, and the Bishop
-> Those who would like the relative ease of entry and no leashes (if you get the optional brakes)
-> People that like to make parallel turns on groomers
-> People that want to be able to buy one boot and use it for tele and AT (Terminator X works with Dynafit TLT bindings )
-> People that haven't been using the current batch of bindings out there such as the BD 01 / HH / Bishops so they don't realize what kind of binding performance and ski control they are missing out on (ignorance is bliss ???)
-> People that don't compare it to the BD 01 for ease of touring and going into / out of tour mode
-> People that love having new and different stuff just for the sake of having new and different stuff
I've only skied the NTN for 3 days so still need lots of time to really get into details. I know I really disliked it at the Copper Demo when skiing variable snow and in bumps. My time on it at Loveland the other day helped me to overcome some of my initial dislike of the binding though. I'll be skiing it backcountry and quite a bit at the areas after we get more snow to try to get a better feel for it. I hope many of you will too.
I would have to say that in my opinion, this binding is not revolutionary - just different.
There are more powerful bindings out there...
There are better touring bindings out there...
There are simpler bindings...
There are lighter bindings...
So - what's so revolutionary???
If that's Greg's reserved judgment, imagine for a moment what his frank assesement must be like!
Joined: 11 Jan 2006 Posts: 86 Location: Jericho, VT
Posted: Thu Nov 15, 2007 1:59 am Post subject:
Thanks for the review. It seems to me that different people have different opinions and impressions. I just don't get all the conspiracy theories.
But I am still confused about the release feature of the NTN. You were having prerelease. Did Mitch or anyone else adjust the settings on your demo bindings to try to get them right? You suggest that they were set "light" for you, but as I understand it, won't cranking up the release setting also crank up the activity level of the binding (so that if someone wants a high activity level they will have to give up on having release as a feature)?
Joined: 06 Dec 2004 Posts: 8196 Location: People's Republic of A**holia
Posted: Thu Nov 15, 2007 2:01 am Post subject:
JPL wrote:
Danno wrote:
...people have been attacking Greg and dobish for saying negative things about the NTN. However, I just reread Greg's observations, and he had a lot of positive things to say, yet people chose to focus on the negative things he noted. Perhaps it is due to the overall tenor; your overall tenor was very positive, with some caveats, while the overall tenor of Greg and dobish's observations was that it did some things good, some things not as advertised, and in general they reserved judgment.
Danno, who are you trying to kid? Dobish gave the NTN a grade for chrissake, and here is Greg supposed "reserved judgment" that was the source of much of the disagreement in that infamous thread where Greg came under fire:
I'm not trying to kid anyone, and thank you for making my point. Greg was quite clear that he only had 3 days on them, that he really disliked it his first day, and liked it more by day 3. He posted things like "The NTN was actually lots of fun for early season conditions with only a few runs open. I did a few top to bottom semi-speed runs skiing parallel and they were sweet. Awesome power transmission from the boot to the ski." I came away from reading his "reviews" with the impression that he had a lot to learn about the binding and knew it, he thought it did some things very well but was disappointed in others, did not feel it was truly revolutionary and was disappointed in that.
As for dobish's review, yes he gave it a grade. I didn't realize that giving something a grade based upon your current impressions meant that you could not reserve final judgment for later. Tell me JPL, what grade did he give it? What grade did he give it that seems to have outraged people so much? He gave it a B/B-. In my book, that means good or ok, not great, not bad. From the responses to his review, however, you'd think he said that it was the worst POS ever. Which again is my point, perception. Your post makes it sound like dobish's grade was a D or worse!
dobish also said things like "This bindings skis groomers while doing parallel turns better than any other telemark binding I have skied. It almost made me want to go out and buy an alpine setup for going really fast. The binding uses nice way of attaching your foot to the ski and gives superb lateral power transfer." and "I had a fun day skiing them. I am looking forward to getting them into some more variable conditions." And lastly, at the very top of his thread, he indicated that he had 3 days on them, and sentence number 2 of his post was "I do understand that there are some things that I have missed, and that there are some things that may change the more days I get on the binding. "
Again, perception, read the negatives and avoid the positives if you choose, I don't care. I just find it all amusing. I have no agenda, I don't think any of these "players" has an agenda, other than we'd all love to see the "holy grail" be a reality. If that is the NTN, great! If not, oh well. The only thing I know is that my judgment of the NTN does not come from these reviews, it will come from skiing them. _________________ "anecdotes are fine assbaggery is not"
"I don't really think she's trolling, more like tra-la-la-la-ling."
"I'm comfortable misreading the tone of posts in a way which suits me."
"Alas, I've been born a Sisyphus for love."
Joined: 08 Mar 2007 Posts: 98 Location: Somewhere in CA - Eastern Sierra last time I checked
Posted: Thu Nov 15, 2007 2:04 am Post subject:
Danno wrote:
You experienced some negative, non-revolutionary things. You had to bend over to put the binding on, but that was minor to you. Others were more disappointed with that. You had issues with boot flex and with pre-releasing. Some might have been really put off by that, but it didn't seem to phase you.
I guess I am just looking at the problems I had as things that can be fixed:
1) Bending down to release the lever and put on the binding - solved by opening and closing the binding a few times to loosen it up
2) Boots - I am SOL this year but I know that eventually there'll be one in my size. I have constant fit issues with boots anyway since my feet are quite narrow so I am accustomed to that being a problem.
3) Binding pre-release - as soon as I put on Mitch's bindings this wasn't a problem. I think the spring just needs to be set tighter and the bellows on the boots broken in a bit more. Maybe a more active spring. Easily fixed.
4) Stiff new boots - just need to be broken in
5) Getting the ski on in deeper snow - takes a bit of getting used to and practice but it wasn't so different from an alpine binding. I wasn't thrilled with it but I think once I got used to it it would get easier (keep in mind this was only my third time putting the binding on!)
I produce product for work every day. We have problems with production and things go wrong. What I saw with the NTN was not as set of huge, deal breaking problems. They were minor ones that can be fixed with a bit of fiddling, tweaking and skiing.
The great thing about the NTN is that it offers possibilities. You can change the springs to make it feel more or less active, you can try a 3 buckle or a 4 buckle boot, you can slide it off the mounting plate and put it on different skis, etc... On the first try you might not end up with the perfect combination of settings and equipment. Why write it off so quickly? One of the joys of skiing is messing with my gear and over thinking my ski-boot-binding-pole combo. NTN is just another excuse to do so and hopefully with more rewarding results.
Joined: 08 Mar 2007 Posts: 98 Location: Somewhere in CA - Eastern Sierra last time I checked
Posted: Thu Nov 15, 2007 2:08 am Post subject:
michaelb wrote:
But I am still confused about the release feature of the NTN. You were having prerelease. Did Mitch or anyone else adjust the settings on your demo bindings to try to get them right? You suggest that they were set "light" for you, but as I understand it, won't cranking up the release setting also crank up the activity level of the binding (so that if someone wants a high activity level they will have to give up on having release as a feature)?
We foolishly didn't carry a screwdriver with us so didn't change the setting on the binding, just switched skis. I am not sure about the relationship of the release setting to the activity of the binding. Mitch? Any info on this?
Joined: 06 Dec 2004 Posts: 8196 Location: People's Republic of A**holia
Posted: Thu Nov 15, 2007 2:10 am Post subject:
I get it Cate, and I think I might have viewed the problems as you did. But what is funny is that while that might have been the case, that I saw the problems as fixable, I have a feeling that I would have expressed more disappointment than you did.
But the funny thing is, the people who have been ripped for daring to post openly negative things about NTN have made it quite clear that they are not giving up on it, not at all. It's just that there was more negativity in their reviews than yours, and more perceived negativity in their reviews. _________________ "anecdotes are fine assbaggery is not"
"I don't really think she's trolling, more like tra-la-la-la-ling."
"I'm comfortable misreading the tone of posts in a way which suits me."
"Alas, I've been born a Sisyphus for love."
Joined: 07 Dec 2004 Posts: 1061 Location: Long Beach/Mammoth
Posted: Thu Nov 15, 2007 2:20 am Post subject:
It would be great if at least this one NTN thread (unlike some other NTN threads) stayed focused on the actual features, performance and usability of the NTN, and not degenerate into a psychological analysis of various reviewers' agendas or lack thereof. There are plenty of other NTN threads in which that can and has been discussed. Let's keep this thread useful as a review. _________________ AIBOHPHOBIA - Fear of palindromes
Joined: 07 Apr 2005 Posts: 1152 Location: Star IDAHO
Posted: Thu Nov 15, 2007 2:26 am Post subject:
Cate - Thank you so much for another point of view on this product. I'm looking forward to reading other's as well. Hopefully the bickering & knit picking of peoples reviews will quell a bit so other's aren't disuaded from sharing their impressions.
It would seem that, as with most new products there will be some tinker time necessary to get things just right. I'm sure that those who are handier & more patient will enjoy the NTN more than others. Frankly I look forward to the adventure of getting the product set up for me. The number of options & adjustments are exciting.
It's clear that the product works. Wether it meets the expectations of the masses will be seen in the coming months. I'll pop some corn & enjoy the show.
Joined: 07 Dec 2004 Posts: 1061 Location: Long Beach/Mammoth
Posted: Thu Nov 15, 2007 2:44 am Post subject:
Adding some video to a review is very useful. After watching the video, I'm anxious to try them out. Despite the wrong size boots, you seem to have adapted to the system and don't appear to fighting it at all. Fortunately my feet are in the size range available.
Is all of the video shot with the Crispis or the Scarpas? (I forget what color the Crispis were going to be be) _________________ AIBOHPHOBIA - Fear of palindromes
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