Big Jay update

tyrebyter · Joined: 10 Dec 2004 Posts: 208 Location: vermont

Here's a link www.wcax.com/Global/story.asp?s=7191357

grayson · Posted: Wed Oct 10, 2007 9:29 pm Post subject:

wow, that sucks.... for everybody! hope they're not stuck with the full fine and sentence, and hope the fws folks don't completely lock down access to big jay. yikes.

The New Guy · Posted: Wed Oct 10, 2007 10:44 pm Post subject:

TeleThor · Joined: 14 Dec 2004 Posts: 1093 Location: SLC

I think jail is way overkill. Fine + replanting sounds pretty good though.
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Keith · Joined: 29 Mar 2005 Posts: 435 Location: Ontario, Canada

The Blue Aardvark · Posted: Wed Oct 10, 2007 11:45 pm Post subject:

So who's going to ski there this winter?
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surfsnowywaves · Joined: 15 Nov 2006 Posts: 489 Location: UVM

So for you non-New Englanders, who probably aren't familiar with the Big Jay environ, the big deal is this:

1) Big Jay is one of the most popular "backcountry" ski destinations in New England
2) The ski cut is highly visible from the top of the Tram at Jay, which will entice many novice backcountry users, increasing the number of people back there, and also risk to ski patrollers who may be involved in search and rescues for injuries
3) Big Jay is one of few mountains in Vermont over 3,000 feet in height that is completely undeveloped. The only development previous to this was an illegal trail which Jay Peak had cut out to the summit of Big Jay. No hiking trails, no shelters.
4) It is important nesting habitat for the Bicknell's Thrush, an endangered species which lives only in alpine zones.
5) The slope is relatively steep, and has no erosion control built into the trail. This means runoff will quickly form gullies, and wash away the soil from an area which already has thin soils.
6) Some people have expressed concerns about the possibility of avalanche danger. This would be especially dangerous, as most backcountry users in New England are not trained in avalanche awareness, nor would be carrying a beacon.
7) This is state owned land, with a strict conservation easement. Cutting this trail was absolutely illegal. Jail is too harsh? If you think about it, they clearly broke the law, and if you want to get technical, they stole over $40,000 from the state in the form of timber. You can look at it like property damage: if you went to your local WalMart with a wrecking ball, and knocked it down, you'd get your socks sued off and they'd probably try to throw you into jail. So if you take your chainsaw to state property, which the land is, you should get your socks sued off and thrown in jail.

That is just meant to get the wheels turning about this.

In response to The New Guy, no, what they did was not a service to the public. There was no imminent forest fire threat (and leaving piles of slash and stacks of firewood size logs does NOT bring down the chance of fire, as mass forest fires in the Whites during peak logging in the early 1900's should greatly attest to), there was no mass insect infection, or anything. These men decided to cut their own backcountry ski trail, against the law, and against logic.

In response to replanting, the issue lies in this:
When replanted, the trees will not instantaneously be ski barriers. Especially when only the tips are sticking out of the snow, or even worse, when the tips are buried under a few inches of powder and skiers cannot see them, ski edges will inevitably run over the trees and clip off buds. This will retard growth, and chances are, the swath will not fully grow in. One suggestion has been to rope the area off, but the issue lies in the fact of enforcement. Are you going to post someone to stand at the top of the swath, ready to cuff skiers ducking the rope? The temptation of the open powder and with only a rope between it and the skier will lead to very little avail. As you may have noticed by The Blue Aardvark's post, be it sarcastic or not, many people, upon hearing about this, think it is a great opportunity for them to get some sweet turns in. We would be living in a fairy tale world if we believed that nobody would actually ski here. Our only hope is that we can mitigate the impact of these people, and try to restore as much as possible. I do believe that in the near future there is a plan to attempt revegetation, but please do not quote me on that, as I am not in charge of anything related to this. Everything I have said so far is simply that; how I see this issue.

On a better note, this Sunday, October 14th, the Green Mountain Club is taking a group of 15 volunteers to the site to do some erosion control to stabilize the site. If you are interested in doing this, and working on Sunday, please, please, please, there are 4 spots still open as of this afternoon for more volunteers, and all work is gladly accepted. You can get in touch either with myself at jgriessh@uvm.edu, or better yet, you can get in touch with Rebecca Washburn from the GMC at rwashburn@greenmountainclub.org. So if you have the time, and would like to get out (benefits include beautiful fall foliage and great exercise!) get in contact with one of us, and we can get you details.

TEO · Joined: 06 Dec 2004 Posts: 465 Location: East Coast

So for you non-Vermonter UVMers, who probably aren't familiar with the Big Jay/Jay history, the big deal is this:

1) Bill Stenger built 24 condiminiums without permission.

2) Bill Stenger dammed up the Jay Branch without permission.

3) Bill Stenger started construction on a golf course and townhouses without proper erosion controls.

4) Bill Stenger cut a trail from Jay Peak out to the top of Big Jay, violating the exact same easement these two are guilty of violating.

Bill Stenger's punishment for the last was an $8,000 donation to the GMC of a period of several years and a lettter of apology to the GMC membership. His punishment for the first to was a $99,000 fine paid over three years. His punishment for the third was a $29,000 fine and a $76,000 payment for Lake Champlain cleanup.

Bill Stenger can still vote. Bill Stenger didn't spend a day in jail. Jay Peak's future livelihood suffered naught. Bill Stenger's actions encouraged and led to the further cutting on Big Jay. And, Bill Stenger had the temerity to publicly lambaste these two poor saps, who are unfortunately, for justice's sake, representing themselves. I don't condone their actions, but felony charges and jail time is not the answer.

michaelb · Joined: 11 Jan 2006 Posts: 86 Location: Jericho, VT

I don't practice criminal law, but in my experience it would be very unusual for a felony conviction for UM to result in an extended jail sentence in Vermont. If they don't reach a plea, and were convicted and sentenced, they may face some jail time (days to a few months) or some sort of supervised work program, but I would be surprised by that unless they have prior felony convictions. If they negotiate a plea the obvious options are to bring that down to a misdemeanor and to agree suspend any sentence, aka probation.

I haven't seen what they did, but it does sound like serious damage to an backcountry area in Vermont, so I fully support going forward aggressively with the prosecution. But we should be realistic as to what that really means.

robrox · Posted: Thu Oct 11, 2007 2:33 am Post subject:

Gawdammit...now I really do feel like a Fiddler on the Roof. Both ssw and TEO are right!

Arrghhh!

Well, at least I'll be out there pounding stakes and laying twine.
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The New Guy · Posted: Thu Oct 11, 2007 2:55 am Post subject:

Thanks for the education. I now see how nothing is really simple.

Steve
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surfsnowywaves · Joined: 15 Nov 2006 Posts: 489 Location: UVM

TEO, while you are correct that I'm no in-stater, I have heard of Jay's shaky relations with the state, and I have been aware of points 3 and 4. It goes to show how Jay being tied to the local economy gives them leveraging power with the judicial system, which obviously isn't going to be the case with these two guys going solo.

Apparently my last post made it seem as if I was gung ho about throwing the two guys into jail, but let me explain myself - it just appeared to me that a lot of folks thought this was a case of little to no importance, but based on the controversy it has caused around these parts, especially in the skiing community, shows just how big a deal it actually is. I personally do not believe throwing them in jail will solve anything, I think throwing people in jail doesn't do too much at all. In some cases, yeah, but others, not so much. This is one of the latter cases. As mentioned in the article, this is a case without precedent. Nothing of this scale, by a private party (private meaning non-company related), has occurred before (to my knowledge), in this area. As pointed out, its a sticky situation, and I'm sure that nobody really knows what to do. Heck, I know the guy who found the two, and have talked to him about it, and from what I could infer, he wasn't sure of what should happen to the guys either.

By the way, if you want to get real technical, I'm not even from New England; I'm still a German citizen.

Edit: BTW, I've realized some of the things I've said, especially when directed at someone, seem kind of jerk-like, which I don't mean. Sorry in advance, I swear I'm just a friendly kid and stuff like this frustrates me and gets my panties in a bunch.

rileybri · Joined: 31 Jan 2006 Posts: 1224 Location: Burlington VT

ATP · Posted: Thu Oct 11, 2007 11:08 am Post subject:

tommyp · Joined: 09 Dec 2004 Posts: 367 Location: North Country, NH

If these guys made profit from the ravaging of lands that do not belong to them, they deserve some severe punishment. Jail sounds a bit rough but honestly, I'd support it.

My huge question has to do with their logic. They knew they would get caught. They knew that their work would be visible to all who travel that direction. Did they simply decide that they were doing a public service and that any punishment would be worth it?
These guys had to think they'd get a slap on the wrist, not jail time. As a result, they need tough love (no pun intended), send them away for a few months.