Posted: Tue May 08, 2007 2:50 pm Post subject: Skier D critique
I don't know much about telemarking and haven't had much experience so I was hoping to see some discussion on this Skier D guy today. Is that the dreaded "fake-a-mark" we are seeing there?
Joined: 06 Dec 2004 Posts: 1890 Location: Syracuse, New York
Posted: Tue May 08, 2007 3:00 pm Post subject:
Decent intermediate tall stance. Back leg seems weighted, hard to tell. The biggest thing I see is the "parallel hesitation" between tele's. The transition between turns needs to be smoother.
Joined: 17 Jan 2005 Posts: 5177 Location: Parker, CO and proud of it!
Posted: Tue May 08, 2007 3:33 pm Post subject:
It seems to me to be a slight fake-a-mark. They are definitely working more than a brand new alpiner, but more weight is on the front foot. At this point my suggestion to this person would be to do some traverses across a slope and try my "shades of grey" technique. That is, I have students start with all their weight on the front foot and slowly, as they slowly traverse across the hill, shift their weight back and over their back foot...and then from back to front, and so on until the end of the traverse. Do it again on the other side.
One thing I notice with new tele skiers often is that they need to work on simple muscle building exercises. Yeah gear and technique go a long way, but you can't hold a pen and write with it without thumb and forfinger muscles (let alone arm, hand, etc...). Sometimes the best thing they can do is just spending time in the *correct* tele stance, however they accomplish that, and build the muscles. I use my "shades of grey" exercise to help build the muscles and their memory.
Joined: 06 Dec 2004 Posts: 1314 Location: Valdez, AK
Posted: Tue May 08, 2007 3:51 pm Post subject:
"It is my first time on telemark skis after one lesson and about 6 practice runs. I get off to a bit of a rough start, but then get into an ok rhythm? "
Obviously the skier has an alpine background so not just the first time on "skiis". Pretty smooth for a beginner but lacking the commitment to get lower, like real low. Don't see much of a fakemark developing at this point. Advanced skiers fakemark the most...Soft snow is helping this skier look pretty good. Of course the video was from last year, so it would be interesting to see how the skier has advanced this year. So yes your rhythm is OK.
If that's the case, you're fine and dandy. At this point, nothing will help you more than just getting some time-on-turns to build muscle memory and a bit of confidence with varying certain aspects of your technique to fit conditions and circumstances of the snow under your feet at the moment.
I could list a series of things you could adjust if this were the end of your first or second season and you found yourself trapped in terminal intermediateville. But, for a novice, you have the basics. Just keep at it and have fun discovering what does and doesn't work for you.
Remember that it is a dance, not a stance and a lot of things will probably come to you naturally without having to over analyze the techie aspects.
"It is my first time on telemark skis after one lesson and about 6 practice runs. I get off to a bit of a rough start, but then get into an ok rhythm? "
Obviously the skier has an alpine background so not just the first time on "skiis". Pretty smooth for a beginner but lacking the commitment to get lower, like real low.
There is no need to get lower, but but there IS a need to pressure the rear ski more. "Real low" wouldn't help this skier, who already has good from-the-hip edge angle & carving skills, it would hurt by forcing skiddier turns and expending more energy.
Valdez Telehead wrote:
Don't see much of a fakemark developing at this point. Advanced skiers fakemark the most...
Looks more like a fake-a-mark that's FADING, rather than developing, but I'm not sure on what what you mean about advanced skiers.
What I see is good side-articulation at the hip, slightly late pole plants, but most importantly and over-reliance on the lead ski. But it's nothing that won't be fixed by a somewhat more upright (fore-aft) upper body. Looks good for a newbie- probably looks much better by now.
Just kick that pelvis forward, never lead with the chin and the rear ski will be better pressured & controlled.
Decent alpine crossover skiers can usually figure it out quickly using the 5 pointers I dumped on mashimisha earlier this season:
*Initiate edging with side roll at the ankle, and pressing the knee of the new-inside (rear) ski outward, and avoid leaning into the turn.
Skier D get's an A for lean-in, but is a bit tentative about initiating edging from the new- inside/rear ski.
**Sink and allow more lead seperation as the edges engage. Only edge the lead ski enough to make it track what the rear ski is doing.
Again, skier D get's an A for the first part, and maybe a B for the second.
***Make most of your edge-angle with side-bend at the hip.
Skier D is at the head of the class on this one!
****Pressure the ball of the lead foot as well as (and as much as) the rear foot- avoid pressuring the HEEL of the lead as if it were the plaque, applying heel pressure only very gingerly at the end of the turn while the edge is fully engaged you want to load up the tail for some rebound at the transition (definitely not necessary, fun with some skis.) Excess heel pressure on the lead ski straightens the ski out, killing the roundness of the carved turn. (Note: This is a major reason why rocker-launch really sucks on hard snow- the lead ski always has significant tail pressure unless the heel of the boot is well off the ski.)
Skier D seems to pressure the lead ski correctly- rarely at the heel, but could use more on the rear.
*****Never let your hands lag or fall behind your hips- it's and indication that you're either getting in the back seat or not counter-rotating enough. Most of the time keep your shoulders across the fall line- don't let your upper body follow your tips or you end up under-edging, edging late and your upper body wags a bit from side to side.
Again, skier D gets good marks for hand position, but could work on a bit more counter-rotation.
Joined: 07 Feb 2005 Posts: 1342 Location: NCC 1701
Posted: Tue May 08, 2007 6:07 pm Post subject: last year
If that was last year....and you've skied any amount this year....my guess is your current level of skiing doesn't look anything like that video. _________________ let me stand next to your fire
Joined: 06 Dec 2004 Posts: 1721 Location: Betwixt the Silvers and Saint Johns
Posted: Tue May 08, 2007 7:21 pm Post subject: Re: Skier D critique
Bootnie-Lee Farnsworth wrote:
Is that the dreaded "fake-a-mark" we are seeing there?
Yes- the turn starts as a telemark, but finishes parallel, the inside foot being brought up to weight it next to the other one in parallel before switching to the next turn. To cure this, as suggested much more weight on inside ski is necessary- equal amounts on each ski- then you'll feel that ski carving the turn and supporting you while tele'd and you will not feel the urge to pull up that ski into parallel position in order to gain stability. _________________ reluctant enthusiast, part-time crusader, half-hearted fanatic
Joined: 22 Mar 2007 Posts: 465 Location: SE Connecticut
Posted: Tue May 08, 2007 7:51 pm Post subject:
Skier D looks great for the amount of experience. I agree with Dana. Going lower doesn't necessarily translate to getting good pressure on the rear ski. I know from experience... Even in a low stance, my tendency is to overpressure the front ski initially in the turn and skid the rear ski with too much lean in. To help pressure the rear ski more, visualize your rear ski heel rising under your buttock as you sink down and knees working more closely together. Focusing on counter rotation, facing straight down the fall line helped me out a lot too- it's a much more deliberate movement when telemark skiing because of the rear leg being behind. You'll feel it in your torso. Main thing though is to enjoy the ride...
Posted: Tue May 08, 2007 8:13 pm Post subject: Re: Skier D critique
Tele Till You're Smelly wrote:
Bootnie-Lee Farnsworth wrote:
Is that the dreaded "fake-a-mark" we are seeing there?
Yes- the turn starts as a telemark, but finishes parallel, the inside foot being brought up to weight it next to the other one in parallel before switching to the next turn. To cure this, as suggested much more weight on inside ski is necessary- equal amounts on each ski- then you'll feel that ski carving the turn and supporting you while tele'd and you will not feel the urge to pull up that ski into parallel position in order to gain stability.
Yeah, there's a bit of a ratchet there on lead/edge transitions most of the time- a hesitation before initiating the edge, which is part of what's screwy about the pole timing.
A good exercise for curing this is to first just stand in one place holding both poles for balance then doing a half-dozen lead transitions quickly sinking into a tele each time, but without moving forward (or backward). Then make a bunch of big sweeper turns on a bunny hill, but making 6-10 quick lead changes throughout the turn. The ratchet goes away, and the fore-aft weighting evens up. After a few of those make some normal single-lead-transition turns, slowing down the lead changes but without the hiccup in the middle.
Joined: 06 Dec 2004 Posts: 1314 Location: Valdez, AK
Posted: Tue May 08, 2007 9:02 pm Post subject:
Managed to grab a 1500' between post...
Pressure the rear ski???
When I mean low I mean another inch or two,,,,,
As far as real low...if you wanna feel like your flying..get lower. If you wanna go real fast .... get lower. Equal weight both skis Get low, get aggressive. Takes thighs and takes time. Stand tall ya go slow, go nowhere skill wise, but look ok. I may stand tall on groomers when I find them.
I was up on the pass the other day and a heliguide, who tele's, came flying out of the mountain non-stop for 2000'....he was cruising and very low. dana would have fainted!!!! (on Igneous, not in a heli).
Not into skiiing tall and only dipping my head a few inches. That's teleing old school, much like long ski poles. Did a little test and note my head drops about 6-8" or so on average. In really dicey conditions I drop perhaps 24"!!! Oh.... and squat, don't spread...right???
HDA - Head Drop Factor - average distance a teleskier head drops on each turn. Distance may vary from left to right side. Not applicable to alpine skiers and mono-board grommets. Computed as:
Gee whiz you guys, let him get some more turns and miles in before you start him fussing with a bunch of this and that's that he may well do anyway on his own.
Too much to think about too soon can be more of a problem than a bit of a hitch in your git-along. There aren't any killer/turn-stopper problems in the video.
The basics are there. Just go ski 'em for a while, then address whatever needs addressing to move on to the next level.
Joined: 08 Dec 2004 Posts: 374 Location: Thalt Lake Thity
Posted: Tue May 08, 2007 11:02 pm Post subject:
First of all I have to say that's a darn good start. Darn good. Since feedback is requested, avoid what I call "pre-turning your turns."
That is, stay in the telemark stance through the very end of the turn. Do not make a temporary transition to a parallel turn just before unweighting. I have also seen many beginners (and others) go into the tele stance of the next turn before unweighting and turning. Don't pre-turn the turn and you will be more stable and make a more traditional tele turn. The rest is all interpretation. Well, everything is, I suppose.
Cheers,
John _________________ "Be kind, for everyone you meet is fighting a hard battle." Plato
Posted: Wed May 09, 2007 6:30 am Post subject: Re: last year
dana wrote:
granpa wrote:
If that was last year....and you've skied any amount this year....my guess is your current level of skiing doesn't look anything like that video.
X2
(Clearly a good skier just working on a new technique.)
Who cares? Isn't depersonalizing the critiques the whole point of the page?
My guess is that today and in the years to come, plenty of alpine converts with few days on teles will look at that video and see a lot of themselves in Skier D. They will then come here looking to see what the community has to offer in the way of advice.
With this in mind, here's mine: Yes, Skier D is fake a marking, running his skis parallel and flat for a long time during his interminably long and drawn-out transitions. Newer tele skiers typically do this when they are uncomfortable with the lead and edge change timing.
I think anyone who finds themselves in this common rut would do well to download Urmas' Monomark video in the Ttips Lessons section, and practice this exercise. Taking the lead change out allows the new telemarker to focus on edge change timing. Once they get comfortable with the timing of the edge change, the rest will come together far more easily.
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Even in a low stance, my tendency is to overpressure the front ski initially in the turn and skid the rear ski with too much lean in. To help pressure the rear ski more, visualize your rear ski heel rising under your buttock as you sink down and knees working more closely together. Focusing on counter rotation, facing straight down the fall line helped me out a lot too- it's a much more deliberate movement when telemark skiing because of the rear leg being behind. You'll feel it in your torso. Main thing though is to enjoy the ride... 
