Joined: 15 Dec 2004 Posts: 9487 Location: Blue Canadian Rockies
Posted: Sat Feb 24, 2007 4:35 pm Post subject:
I don't think it was a "hoax". People were killed
Quote:
Wuterich, the squad leader, and the men he led in Haditha are charged with violating the military's rules of engagement in the deaths of 24 Iraqi civilians. The slayings took place after a roadside bomb destroyed a Humvee, killing a lance corporal, as the Marines' four-vehicle convoy was passing through the city.
The men and their attorney maintain they were within the rules when they returned fire and used grenades in assaulting several homes where they believed insurgents were using as positions to fire at the men. The squad also is charged with killing five men who fled from a taxi shortly after the roadside bombing.
"If the rules of engagement and the laws of war are to mean anything, then Staff Sgt. Wuterich is innocent of all charges," Zaid said.
It is more a question of the the rules of engagement and were the killings justified by the circumstances.
Joined: 25 Dec 2004 Posts: 5719 Location: Switzerland
Posted: Sun Feb 25, 2007 5:24 pm Post subject:
skookumchuck wrote:
I am going to be pedantic here and point out that the case referenced by TeleAl is not the Haditha case referred to by Otis.
Twas not my intention to link that story to the Haditha one.
My apologies.
I simply did not want to start a thread for each of these cases. _________________ You give us what we want in a week, or we beat the hell out of you and take it anyway.
--Anacreon message, roughly translated by Mayor Hardin
Joined: 06 Dec 2004 Posts: 5700 Location: Colorado Higher Country
Posted: Sun Feb 25, 2007 5:59 pm Post subject:
JL wrote:
Social security is, hands down, the most successful government program ever, so, yea, working out pretty good.
Wow, I didn't see that statement until just now. That's an incredible conclusion you've drawn there JL.
If you've been on the collection side of that equation for the past 70 years, yup, a great program. If'n your on the paying and collection side of the equation for the next 70 years . . . hmmmmm, wonder what folks are going to be saying in the future.
Talk about a borrow and spend program . . . only problem is that debt ain't on the books. Scary stuff.
Ponzi schemes aren't illegal if done by the government. _________________ otis
Federal policy is dividing society between "those who work for a living and those who vote for a living".
-H.L. Mencken
All are lunatics, but he who can analyze his delusion is called a philosopher.
-Ambrose Bierce
Joined: 08 Dec 2004 Posts: 2793 Location: Bay Area
Posted: Sun Feb 25, 2007 7:22 pm Post subject:
otis of moab wrote:
JL wrote:
Social security is, hands down, the most successful government program ever, so, yea, working out pretty good.
Wow, I didn't see that statement until just now. That's an incredible conclusion you've drawn there JL.
If you've been on the collection side of that equation for the past 70 years, yup, a great program. If'n...
We'll never know for sure, but a pretty good case can be made that Social Security, and other aggressive government programs initiated by the FDR administration (which certainly included deficit spending and eventually effected a massive redistribution of wealth), set the stage for America's general prosperity in the latter half of the 20th century.
One could go even further and speculate that the US might not have even survived to the end of the 20th century were it not for SS & other New Deal initiatives (which doesn't even get into the implications of the Nazi threat, which might have been handled quite differently by a more business-friendly administration). When FDR took office, extreme poverty was rampant; there were a lot of citizens who really didn't have much of a stake in the system. The writing was on the wall: Marxism was in fashion on the other side of the world, while at home a corrupt socialist by the name of Huey Long quickly became enormously popular in Louisiana (before he was shot and killed). It was not a long-term stable climate for the American state.
Joined: 06 Dec 2004 Posts: 7749 Location: Salt Lake City
Posted: Mon Feb 26, 2007 5:10 am Post subject:
ponzi scheme? How bout this Iraq thingy. Pay as you go?
Oh, and yea, what bobskiing sed.
FDR not only defeated nazi's, he saved capitalism, and possibly America as we know it.
Social security, GI bill. Hard to know, but something about leveling opportunity and creating a safety net caused this economy to take off, creating the American way of life. _________________ When all is said and done, it makes great toast!
Joined: 06 Dec 2004 Posts: 5700 Location: Colorado Higher Country
Posted: Mon Feb 26, 2007 1:41 pm Post subject:
JL wrote:
ponzi scheme? How bout this Iraq thingy. Pay as you go?
Oh, and yea, what bobskiing sed.
FDR not only defeated nazi's, he saved capitalism, and possibly America as we know it.
Social security, GI bill. Hard to know, but something about leveling opportunity and creating a safety net caused this economy to take off, creating the American way of life.
You want to talk about Iraq or social security?
I never said creating a social security program was bad, I said the one that was created was bad. Poor design, didn't take into account changing demographics. And as usual with a government program, it didn't get changed when it needed to be fixed.
You and I probably won't be around when the shit really hits the fan on social security. Would love to hear your praises when taxes go up and benefits go down for the generations coming up who are going to have to pay the piper for that great program. _________________ otis
Federal policy is dividing society between "those who work for a living and those who vote for a living".
-H.L. Mencken
All are lunatics, but he who can analyze his delusion is called a philosopher.
-Ambrose Bierce
Joined: 06 Dec 2004 Posts: 5700 Location: Colorado Higher Country
Posted: Mon Feb 26, 2007 1:44 pm Post subject:
bobskiing wrote:
We'll never know for sure, but a pretty good case can be made that Social Security, and other aggressive government programs initiated by the FDR administration (which certainly included deficit spending and eventually effected a massive redistribution of wealth), set the stage for America's general prosperity in the latter half of the 20th century.
One could go even further and speculate that the US might not have even survived to the end of the 20th century were it not for SS & other New Deal initiatives (which doesn't even get into the implications of the Nazi threat, which might have been handled quite differently by a more business-friendly administration). When FDR took office, extreme poverty was rampant; there were a lot of citizens who really didn't have much of a stake in the system. The writing was on the wall: Marxism was in fashion on the other side of the world, while at home a corrupt socialist by the name of Huey Long quickly became enormously popular in Louisiana (before he was shot and killed). It was not a long-term stable climate for the American state.
Prove it.
Nice job of making things up bob. _________________ otis
Federal policy is dividing society between "those who work for a living and those who vote for a living".
-H.L. Mencken
All are lunatics, but he who can analyze his delusion is called a philosopher.
-Ambrose Bierce
Joined: 06 Dec 2004 Posts: 7749 Location: Salt Lake City
Posted: Mon Feb 26, 2007 2:12 pm Post subject:
Otis, this may be taxing your memory quite a bit, but we have, in the past, agreed on many things with regard to social security.
We will have to recognize changes in demographics. People are working longer. Realize that in SSI. I recently bumped up against the limit for collections - hey that was nice! But bump that out too.
The reality, though, is that if we don't do anything, when the shortfall occurs, and the money that social security has been saving up since Reagan and Greenspan so wisely started putting away a little extra runs out, a benefit cut of like 20% - not that I am advocating that - would completely balance the collections and distributions. So the problem isn't as intractable as some politicians would make you believe. The idea that some of the productivity of the nation goes to supporting the social safety net is not such a bad idea. Because in reality, that is exactly what has to be done, and social security has always been the most efficient way to do just that. It has freed up millions of middle class workers to be freer to take jobs where jobs are offered, rather than be tasked with taking care of their parents. Social security creates labor liquidity. Best government program ever. _________________ When all is said and done, it makes great toast!
Joined: 06 Dec 2004 Posts: 7749 Location: Salt Lake City
Posted: Mon Feb 26, 2007 2:24 pm Post subject:
otis of moab wrote:
Prove it.
Nice job of making things up bob.
Otis, you might have fun poking fun at us as being "socialists", but in the 30's there were some real socialists and demagogues that could have done real harm to the "American way of life" had they taken power. You deny that? FDR saved capitalism. _________________ When all is said and done, it makes great toast!
Joined: 08 Dec 2004 Posts: 2793 Location: Bay Area
Posted: Mon Feb 26, 2007 8:28 pm Post subject:
"Prove it." Bolstered by the little laughing smilie. Classic, a real intelligent approach to evaluating history. What part of "we'll never know for sure" don't you understand? Do you want to "prove" that your precious ideology would have solved things better?
I'll start you off: It's 1932 and the Supreme Court has just given Prescott Bush the presidency; Bush slashes the taxes that Herbert Hoover had just finished doubling, that part's easy. And it ends with "Q.E.D." You just have to fill in the middle part.
Joined: 02 Feb 2006 Posts: 5123 Location: Mammoth Lakes (sometimes)
Posted: Mon Feb 26, 2007 10:52 pm Post subject:
bobskiing wrote:
"Prove it." Bolstered by the little laughing smilie. Classic, a real intelligent approach to evaluating history. What part of "we'll never know for sure" don't you understand? Do you want to "prove" that your precious ideology would have solved things better?
I'll start you off: It's 1932 and the Supreme Court has just given Prescott Bush the presidency; Bush slashes the taxes that Herbert Hoover had just finished doubling, that part's easy. And it ends with "Q.E.D." You just have to fill in the middle part.
One things is for sure if had happened, we would have won WWII (along with our German and Italian allies). _________________
Doesn't seem to be a hoax. _________________ You give us what we want in a week, or we beat the hell out of you and take it anyway.
--Anacreon message, roughly translated by Mayor Hardin
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