Joined: 09 Dec 2004 Posts: 1313 Location: Anchorage
Posted: Tue Dec 28, 2004 9:39 pm Post subject:
This post is interesting. Seems that everyone that followed Rudi up the slope was an idiot, but those that were lucky enough not to get buried are heroes. [/quote]
It will be interesting to see whether the ACMG releases any more detailed analysis and information after the second anniversary of the accident passes, and the threat of a lawsuit can no longer be used as an excuse for them not explaining what happened.
I think it's likely. After intense pressure from TTips postings the ACMG will probably release a scathing report about the incident. They will likely go further and post this quote:
"And if you want to keep people alive
You do not presume to know
You act as if you do not know"
Quite likely future guiding will only take place on avalanche slopes if there is a low hazard. Backcountry Lodges will likely build more hot tubs and hire more massage therapists to deal with the likely increase in downtime.
Not satisfied the government will begin to regulate alpine guiding and name a very frequent poster on TTips to set up the standards and regulations.
Quote:
PJM: I stand by my comparison of Beglinger to the Mickeedees shooter… the results are the same.
Given that the guide would not have known that the fracture would crack below him as opposed to above him I think this is closer to a suicide bomb mission in Bagdad rather that a shooter at Macdonalds in the USA.
Quote:
Gary Brill In my opinion, the methodology in this accident was negligent.
Not enough avy pros have accused another Avy pro of negligence on a public internet forum.
Seriously guys I have no affiliation to the ACMG, have never been to Durrand or met the guide in question so while everyone rushes to look objective I would like to place my stake too.
Until your posts are a little more responsible and a little closer to reality you will continue to be like hamsters on a wheel getting no where.
Joined: 21 Dec 2004 Posts: 75 Location: The slopes of Mount Analogue, of course!
Posted: Thu Dec 30, 2004 4:03 am Post subject: nada
snowspider wrote:
Quite likely future guiding will only take place on avalanche slopes if there is a low hazard. Backcountry Lodges will likely build more hot tubs and hire more massage therapists to deal with the likely increase in downtime.
Given that the guide would not have known that the fracture would crack below him as opposed to above him I think this is closer to a suicide bomb mission in Bagdad rather that a shooter at Macdonalds in the USA.
Until your posts are a little more responsible and a little closer to reality you will continue to be like hamsters on a wheel getting no where.
My sympathies to the families.
Mr. Spider - I appreciate your comments and understand the sentiment. This is tiring isn't it?
But I hope that future guiding is not relegated to low hazard areas. I have to point out that Beglinger's route was one of two options that got to the same place in about the same time and had very different hazard levels, that is, potentials for killing a bunch of people when you choose to stack them up.
Actually, I like your Bagdad suicide bomber analogy way better than the Mickeedees one... more like same with random number generator activated and wired to close contacts when the magic number IS hit. In La Traviata, you strap the guests with their own explosives, radio connected to your (the guide's) central transmitter. Now, leave your brains at home because you are with a FAMOUS guide!
In some respect we are all like little hamsters when we choose to be. But I'm finding this a bit too draaaaawwwwnnnn out.
I am wondering what you suggest as far as "reality" goes? Do you have any solid, non-relativistic, non-chaotic and strictly Euclidean examples? Do you have any examples drawn from snow science, recommended group risk management techniques, or terrain evaluation that would shed light on the situation?
Joined: 06 Dec 2004 Posts: 268 Location: Beautiful British Columbia
Posted: Thu Dec 30, 2004 7:22 pm Post subject:
Cambria wrote:
Wow how dare anyone challenge Franks' posts!
Why not- but stick to the facts, and leave emotion and personal attacks out of it. That is what a healthy democracy is all about
Quote:
And heaven forbid if you don't use your real name. Sorry everyone but I guess I don't have the "intestional fortitude" to follow this any further.
Check out www.couloirmag.com to see why using your real name makes for a far more honest debate. For that matter, check out the Swiss Federal Institute's forum where all of the Swiss avalanche experts not only participate in debates, but use their real name. What agenda have you got to hide there Cambria?
Quote:
To summarize, yes I agree mistakes were made and I am sure SME as learned alot.
Others have offered the same opinion; but despite what has been insinuated, I haven't. I have steadfastly avoided making any comment on this because it involves two critical factors: what does society consider acceptable risk, and what would an independent group of professional guides, or a judge, think of what happened? I have simply stuck to trying to put the facts together, without delving into either of these two critical questions.
Quote:
Those remaining people performed admirably that day under tough circumstances and to suggest otherwise is beyond human compassion.
I certainly have not suggested otherwise, as you insinuate; which is obviously an attempt to deflect from the issue. I absolutely agree; the survivors performed valiantly; I have the greatest respect for what they did. But again, would society, a group of independent guides, or a judge, agree that the professional mountain guide involved had an acceptable rescue plan, and properly executed that plan according to an agreed upon standard, and therefore minimized the loss of life?
Quote:
Your arrogance speaks volumes Frank...
Where is their arrogance??? Since when is an attempt to carefully analyze and present the facts arrogant?
Your need to use personal attacks to deflect from the real issues is a far greater concern than any arrogance on my part. Why don't you come clean on this instead of cowardly hiding behind a pseudonym, and refusing to debate the issues and the facts? C'mon, Cambria, what relationship do you have to the principles in this sad situation? What vested interest? I sleep well knowing that I have none- no relationship, and no vested interest; all I want is that the truth be known. _________________ There are no easy solutions, only intelligent choices
ava blanche,,,you are beginning to sound "obsessed" about the Durand incident, which shows through your rather emotional defense and aggresive opinon on the incident. Find something else, most of us have learned what we needed to and have moved on.
Cerainly those with direct association with the victims will take much longer to move on and I fully respect thier emotional involvement.
ITs been two years. There are lives to be saved right now, this weekend, next month....let us focus on that.
respctfully.....VT
Last edited by Valdez Telehead on Thu Dec 30, 2004 7:47 pm; edited 2 times in total
Joined: 06 Dec 2004 Posts: 268 Location: Beautiful British Columbia
Posted: Thu Dec 30, 2004 7:39 pm Post subject:
telemike wrote:
do you? from your own experience, not just from a book or website or what an "expert" has told you?
Are you suggesting that the volumes of books written on the subject of avalanche safety are not really all that meaningful and relevant to this situation? Of course, that immediately excludes all courses too, since they are all based on one or more of the thousands of books on avalanche safety out there. And that all the websites devoted to avalanche safety- the Canadian Avalanche Association's excellent web site comes to mind- are the same?
And if you think that the reports that have been written by Full Guide and Avalanche Authority Larry Stanier, or Dick Penniman and myself, are not adequate, then why don't you convince the "experts" that you believe are credible to speak up. So far, their silence has been deafening.
For that matter, have you ever told us what expertise you have to be debating this issue? C'mon there telemike, what avalanche training and expertise, not learned from books, websites, or courses, do you actually have? _________________ There are no easy solutions, only intelligent choices
Joined: 06 Dec 2004 Posts: 268 Location: Beautiful British Columbia
Posted: Thu Dec 30, 2004 7:56 pm Post subject:
Valdez Telehead wrote:
ava blanche,,,you are beginning to sound "obsessed" about the Durand incident, which shows through your rather emotional defense and aggresive opinon on the incident. Find something else, most of us have learned what we needed to and have moved on.
respctfully.....VT
Hardly; you're here too- and started the latest round of posts by making the uninformed comments about the rescue.
But you're right, there are a lot of better things to do with my time than to debate this issue, so I will try to add your suggestion to my New Year's resolution list.
Maybe you should do the same, though. _________________ There are no easy solutions, only intelligent choices
God forbid anyone question the guide who was only another 'victim' of a natural event, act of god if you will.
Seems like a bunch of you have made this into personal attacks rather than analyzing a terrible tragedy that happened when the captain of the ship made a mistake. Oops I shouldn't suggest there was a mistake made.
I would like to see the quote where Reudi B. admits to making a mistake.
Maybe he didn't make a mistake.
Maybe the skipper of the Exon Valdez didn't make a mistake either, it was just an act of god that the reef happened to be there when he decided to have a drink instead.
No one should be blamed for a car wreck either, doesn't matter if your loved one was killed by a drunken driver or the like. If that person made the choice to get on the highway with other drivers they made the choice to put themselves at risk. Because we all know driving on public roads is a risk. How about if the bus driver on the bus your riding makes a bad choice resulting in a death of a passenger. That driver shouldn't be held accountable or held up to any scrutiny because in fact he is a bus driver after all and the people on the bus made the choice to trust him?
How dare somebody from outside the bus-driving profession analyze the situation.
Line me up on the side of this debate that prefers rational analyzation. I haven't seen that being done by anyone ripping on Frank Baumann.
Leave the personal attacks at home folks. Put some alternative reasoning in here if you can but leave the spite and venom out. It would be nice to see others post thoughts and opinions but why would they if they see the possiblity of the responses.
Some of you ought to look close at a career in political campaigning, there's a real need for campaign managers (mud slingers) who know how to put the facts aside and put negative campaigning into the forefront of any and all debates.
rant over, carry on brothers
Last edited by jw on Fri Dec 31, 2004 4:09 pm; edited 1 time in total
I think its fairly obvious from your posts that this is not really the case. The "truth" as you call it is pretty easy to determine. A mistake was made and people were killed because of it.
What you seem to be after is not the truth, but to point blame. I'm not sure what good will come of this, even if you properly lay blame. If its on the guide, then maybe he will receive a censure of some sort, or maybe people will stop using his services.
If blame lay on the clients for "turning their brains off" then I think they have suffered enough already for this mistake.
The best outcome from any accident like this is that we in the skiing community learn from these events, and make better decisions ourselves in routefinding and hazard evaluation because of it. Cause if it can happen to this group, then it can happen to any of us.
You can go ahead and play the blame game forever, but realize that the rest of the community slowly tunes out to the relevant facts as you add more and more layers of blame, confusion and personal agenda to the discussion.
Posted: Thu Dec 30, 2004 10:12 pm Post subject: Re: nada
Peter Miller wrote
Quote:
I am wondering what you suggest as far as "reality" goes?
Reality is found in this quote from F.A. Collins in his 1923 book: Mountain Climbing - The experienced mountaineer learns to judge snow conditions with marvelous accuracy and becomes so confident of his opinion that he will risk his life on his judgement.
A general statement of course and not 100 percent accurate as we know given the human condition and it's propensity for imperfection, but there it is. It doesn't matter what I think about that and given the dreadful circumstances of two years ago you won't like reading it. You may not belive it because you haven't been exposed to the work of these people over long periods of time. You may not appreciate it because you haven't parachuted into a hostile big mounatin situation with limited avy knowledge and enjoyed the fine pow on the world's best ski slopes. It's where it's at today and where it's going tomorrow. You can try to butt heads with it but it's like butting heads with a freight train. And when the experienced mountaineers of today move on (very slowly) they will be replaced by new ones (very quickly). Pro avy courses in Canada sell out the summer before.
Have I answered all your questions? Of course not. I'm like everyone else. In matters of death there are always more questions than answers.
"Hardly; you're here too- and started the latest round of posts by making the uninformed comments about the rescue. "
Uninformed????That's BS...I was just trying to be a little bit positive and bring the discussion to an end. Reread my post on the rescue.I did listen to a survivor of the incident describe in stark terms the rescue. Then you blamed everyone but Reudi's mother for a lousy rescue,,,,,,,that is a low blow insult to those who shoveled, uncluding Reudi, thier asses off to recover survivors.
Chill AB and move on, unless there is something else you would like to tell us for the 50th time about the incident.
Chill AB and move on, unless there is something else you would like to tell us for the 50th time about the incident.
I love it when people on BBs start arguing about who should chill. You know the topics over but some people just have to have the last word.
Quote:
I heard first hand from a survivor one day after the accident on Valdez Public Radio by Dan Bross, a skier BTW. He was from Anchorage and spoke in depth about the incident for nearly a 1/2 hour live. I will never forget his description of the aftermath of the slide.
I also love it when people try to impress me with their knowledge and say things like that. "It must be true, I heard it on talk radio!"
Joined: 09 Dec 2004 Posts: 3572 Location: on the wings of a pig
Posted: Fri Dec 31, 2004 4:11 am Post subject:
thanks Matt - I appreciate that.
I am not going to sit here and toot my own horn and try to justify my "qualifications" for commenting here. I am not a pro or expert anything. Just someone who cares about this stuff. There are no standards here Frank, until you start spouting off as an authority.
Remember what I said - these are my own uninformed assbag opinions. _________________ Ad astra per alia porci
You cannot post new topics in this forum You cannot reply to topics in this forum You cannot edit your posts in this forum You cannot delete your posts in this forum You cannot vote in polls in this forum
All of the comments above are owned by the
poster, telemarktips.com is not responsible in any way for the
content. The views expressed by the posters are not necessarily
those of Tt.com, its management or owners. Ski safe, be happy,
rip it up, smile on your brother and sister!
FAQ
Search
Memberlist
Usergroups
Register
Profile
Log in to check your private messages
Log in
