Joined: 21 Dec 2004 Posts: 75 Location: The slopes of Mount Analogue, of course!
Posted: Mon Dec 27, 2004 4:12 am Post subject:
You know, this issue does so nicely resolve into a form vs content argument and that makes it interesting. You know, nice duality, social constraints and politics at play, presumptions about status and the like, etc, etc.
My estimation is that not only Beglinger's form was bad at La Traviata but the content of his decision making and actions as well. Now the further interesting part: the guiding profession presumes that since Beglinger IS a "GUIDE" that his "form" is acceptable... no matter what. Sorry to be blunt, but if Beglinger and his business model represent some sort of pinnacle of "professional" guiding "form" then, shoot, monkeys will certainly fly out of somewhere soon! And you can believe me, I don't expect that to happen!
Funhog and others have summed it up nicely in terms of content. Beglinger's guiding activity Jan 20 was seriously deficient and it cost a whole group of people their lives. I'd call that really bad form... not at all living up to the professionalism assumed of him by his clients that day. I mean walking around in the snow to check stability below a windloaded couloir feature??
Now, how is this "professional guiding", which I assume implies some sort of adherence to acceptable standards, going to continue to sell itself as "reliable" and worth paying for if they have no standards or even meaningful review of disasters? Certainly, it would seem to me that some cleaning-up needs to be done in preparation for the Olympics.
I am almost in line with db's comments regarding guides in that if we cannot know or assume that they are doing a good job, then we might as well assume they are doing a bad job... and, why hire them for that?! I am reminded of the client death last year where the the guides located the pickup area in a well-defined runout zone under high avy conditions... from my point of view another completely unnecessary death... while being "professionally" guided.
I am also reminded that I have an appointment to go up to Alaska, visit Matt and Funhog?! Sorry I didn't make it last year. I'll do my darndest this season... like to meet you both.
Mike - Though there has been a lot of anger about this I do not believe anger will carry the day, nor does anger live deeply in my heart at this point. There has just been too much tragedy in this. I just think it is remarkably stupid to paint the Durrand avalanche as anything other that what it was... just because Beglinger is an "experienced" guide and some sort of presumed "icon".
I've seen and been around plenty of such "icons" in the mountains who thought they were better than the mountains... I've had them fly over my head, dead due to avalanche impact, I've met many of them and then mourned their deaths while climbing in the Andes, and I've continually confronted this in my avocations of mountaineering and rock climbing: What place does arrogance and presumption have in the mountains? How do you "stay smart" and still "go for it"?
My intervierws with Beglinger and with people who were with him on Jan 20, 2003 indicated to me that Beglinger was just habitually going through the same gerbil-on-the-wheel approach to La Traviata as he's always done. He was not being careful and, indeed, appeared in his actions as a guide and in his interview statements with me to be basically ignorant of an understanding of actual risk analysis. I believe it to be obvious that Beglinger was acting by habit and intuition and genuinely believed he could "know the snow",and here is the problem, and thereby violate basic rules by completely mismanaging his clients, thereby begging the extreme and unnecessary risk of killing them.
I believe it is a real shame that they even allow so-called "professional" people to operate like that. I really think it is more of an educational and consciousness problem than anything else. Munter said it well.
Mike - I do suppose I'd rather have used some other methodology for "getting the truth out", and for having some effect, but burning sage and Puja ceremonies at sunrise didn't do it... so this will have to suffice. And no, I haven't touched a framing hammer in years.
Joined: 06 Dec 2004 Posts: 268 Location: Beautiful British Columbia
Posted: Mon Dec 27, 2004 10:08 pm Post subject:
That this disaster happened is a real tragedy; but that the professional organization most responsible for finding out exactly what happened, and explaining to the public what they are going to do to avoid a similar tragedy, is, in my opinion, a national disgrace.
It will be interesting to see whether the ACMG releases any more detailed analysis and information after the second anniversary of the accident passes, and the threat of a lawsuit can no longer be used as an excuse for them not explaining what happened. _________________ There are no easy solutions, only intelligent choices
Ava, I was really disappointed to read on the other board that you think Tim Ryan is actually me, JPL. I have much too much respect for Mitch and Telemarktips to take those kinds of shots at this site and its publisher. Why not leave the jumping to false conclusions thing to the Tim Ryans of the web and stick to what you know as truth?
What seems to be forgotten in this whole "controversy" is the heroic efforts and lives saved after the chaos. Those who survived should be remembered for their incredibly quick organizing and rescue in very difficult circumstances. These folks are heros IMO.
Not sure of this was mentioned in any of the above reports or articles. If not that is wrong. Is was not just a tragic avalanche but also the subsequent rescue that make the story complete.
Joined: 09 Dec 2004 Posts: 3572 Location: on the wings of a pig
Posted: Tue Dec 28, 2004 3:33 am Post subject:
yeah - I'd like to hear from some of the folks who were there
I have heard a bit third hand, and with what little I know it was a bad scene. Folks did well in a bad situation. _________________ Ad astra per alia porci
Joined: 06 Dec 2004 Posts: 268 Location: Beautiful British Columbia
Posted: Tue Dec 28, 2004 5:31 am Post subject:
JPL wrote:
Ava, I was really disappointed to read on the other board that you think Tim Ryan is actually me, JPL. I have much too much respect for Mitch and Telemarktips to take those kinds of shots at this site and its publisher. Why not leave the jumping to false conclusions thing to the Tim Ryans of the web and stick to what you know as truth?
JPL: I am truly sorry; this was a total space cowboy mistake on my part. Unfortunately, I am on vacation relying on Internet cafes to check in occasionally, and by the time I realized my mistake, I couldn't correct it anymore (Craig's forum has a time limit beyond which you can't edit anymore).
I will post basically the same message over there so that the matter is fully clarified.
Again, my sincerest apologies. And just to keep with the season, Merry Christmas and a Happy New Year to you. _________________ There are no easy solutions, only intelligent choices
Joined: 06 Dec 2004 Posts: 268 Location: Beautiful British Columbia
Posted: Tue Dec 28, 2004 5:59 am Post subject:
Valdez Telehead wrote:
What seems to be forgotten in this whole "controversy" is the heroic efforts and lives saved after the chaos. Those who survived should be remembered for their incredibly quick organizing and rescue in very difficult circumstances. These folks are heros IMO.
Not sure of this was mentioned in any of the above reports or articles. If not that is wrong. Is was not just a tragic avalanche but also the subsequent rescue that make the story complete.
I think you should carefully read the Coroner's Inquiry report comments on this, and then those facts that I was able to document in my report, before you make a statement like this.
Of course, the survivors worked heroically; as would any of us that were there- but was it an efficient and effective rescue done to the standard that would be expected of a professional mountain guide? Only one totally buried person survived, and two people who were at the top end of the debris pile (and therefore should theoritically have been found first by the survivors coming down the bed surface of the avalanche) were pretty well found last.
Again, these are meant to be neutral, factual statements on my part, based on the current information that is available. If the story is different, and any questions about whether or not this was a model rescue, will need to wait until a more thorough and independent investigation is done. Suffice it to say, many questions remain unanswered. _________________ There are no easy solutions, only intelligent choices
Joined: 06 Dec 2004 Posts: 268 Location: Beautiful British Columbia
Posted: Tue Dec 28, 2004 5:55 pm Post subject:
telemike wrote:
VT - how dare you accuse the survivors of performing well in a bad situation
And your point is? Typical- why let facts get in the way of a pre-conceived, superficial, and callous or indifferent notion? I wonder if you'd have the same attitude if it was your loved one that was killed. Try convincing Craig Kelly's mom, for example, that everything was done to efficiently find and rescue her son.
Here's a challenge to you telemike- what would you have told Mrs. Hansen if you were face to face with her and she asked "given his position at the top end of the debris, why wasn't my son dug out first? Why did it take almost an hour to find him? What equipment did they have to dig him out? And why did I have to suffer through the agony of finding my son's ski pole during the memorial service last summer to confirm where he was?"
It took about an hour to find everyone- but even that is just a guess since we have only SME's estimate of when the avalanche actually occurred; cynical me likes to have independent corroboration of a critical question like this. We do know that the police, who are officially in charge of rescues, were not called until about a half hour after the avalanche purportedly happened. Another question that cynical little me, trying to establish the truth of what really happened, would like to have answers to- what took so long? _________________ There are no easy solutions, only intelligent choices
Joined: 09 Dec 2004 Posts: 3572 Location: on the wings of a pig
Posted: Tue Dec 28, 2004 6:24 pm Post subject:
not suggesting that everything - or anything, for that matter - was done right from a SAR standpoint, but I think your comments are an insult to people like heidi b and others who tried desperately to save the lives of their friends _________________ Ad astra per alia porci
Joined: 09 Dec 2004 Posts: 3572 Location: on the wings of a pig
Posted: Tue Dec 28, 2004 7:22 pm Post subject:
and I was not there and have not talked to anyone that was so my opinion is just what you think - an uninformed assbag opinion _________________ Ad astra per alia porci
I heard first hand from a survivor one day after the accident on Valdez Public Radio by Dan Bross, a skier BTW. He was from Anchorage and spoke in depth about the incident for nearly a 1/2 hour live. I will never forget his description of the aftermath of the slide.
Wow how dare anyone challenge Franks' posts! And heaven forbid if you don't use your real name. Sorry everyone but I guess I don't have the "intestional fortitude" to follow this any further.
To summarize, yes I agree mistakes were made and I am sure SME as learned alot. Those remaining people performed admirably that day under tough circumstances and to suggest otherwise is beyond human compassion. That takes the cake for me er, should I say "Christmas Pudding" since it is Xmas.
Your arrogance speaks volumes Frank...
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Sorry I didn't make it last year. I'll do my darndest this season... like to meet you both.
