Joined: 19 Jan 2005 Posts: 3356 Location: The bull's eye
Posted: Thu Oct 30, 2008 6:05 pm Post subject: Reform the Republican Party or start new?
If the democrats win a supermajority next Tuesday, I believe there will be tremendous pressure on/within the Republican Party to make sigificant changes in its leadership, policies and even principles.
Some people are trying to fix the Republican Party from the inside, such as the Republican Leadership Council. But I believe this is a lost cause, as signaled by conservative Christopher Buckley's forced resignation from The National Review, the magazine his father founded, for endorsing Barack Obama for President. The "you're either with us or against us" neoconservatives attack any dissenting opinion with violent rhetoric or even actual violence. Frankly, the Republican Party leadership will not allow reform or change.
It is time that we moderate Republicans join together to form a new political party. Moving to the Democratic Party is not an option for most of us, as they have their own issues, with a general move to the extreme left only countered by Senator Obama's centrist policies.
I believe I recall a certain professor on this forum claim to be a conservative, and another engineer was a Republican in the Eighties who became a precint leader for the Democrats in the 2006 elections.
Another dog-owning, work-from-the-home lawyer claims he would like to see the Republican Party improve itself, and that he would work towards that, IIRC.
Personally, I believe a strong opposition party results in the best government - the Democratic Party was in a shambles after the 2000 election, and resulted in an extended period of, quite frankly, poor government. Contrast that to the Nineties, when a strong Republican Party was in Congress. It does not bode well that, if the Democrats win a super-majority, the Republican Party will likely be in a shambles, if it isn't already. Can the country afford the time it would take for a third party to coalesce?
As an aside, it appears that money and a lack of term limits on Senators and Congresspersons has resulted in a dysfunctional government.
The world, rightly or wrongly, looks to world powers for leadership. I would rather see the US provide that leadership, however there is no doubt in my mind that, within my lifetime, that mantle will fall to another country. But what the US does in the next couple decades will affect what and how much it will be able to influence world affairs.
The Republican or another third party will be crucial in determining the outcome.
Joined: 06 Dec 2004 Posts: 391 Location: Upstate NY
Posted: Thu Oct 30, 2008 7:39 pm Post subject:
The elephant ain't going anywhere soon. The election is not over yet, so the idea of a Democratic super-majority is only a prognosis today, we'll see in a 5 days. Parties have been brought to their knees before and bounced back; the democrats where pretty low after Kerry and worked hard since to rebuild. One man, the current clown masquerading as POTUS, brought down the party. We as a nation do not like one party rule in general, the Republicans will rebuild themselves with lots of help from willing folks simply because they are the only other viable game in town. My bet is they will rebuild and be stronger ethically as a result, for a while anyway, until this era fades into past. _________________ Recycle and conserve natural resources, nothing lasts forever.
Joined: 21 Sep 2007 Posts: 17706 Location: EL/R -6.12, SL/A -8.15 in NW VT and slightly south of the Poutine Curtain
Posted: Thu Oct 30, 2008 8:18 pm Post subject:
i fear a dem majority would be as bad as a republican majority.
we need serious opposition.
i sure hope the Republican party splinters, and for that matter the dems.
I can see some easy 'party' break-outs from our current two party lock: religious right/authoritarians, social conservativves, fiscal conservatives,fiscal non-conservatives, social libertarians, communists.
Here's hoping that happens. And yes, several people have pointed out what Italy is like. It doesn't have to be that way with a multi-party system. _________________
Joined: 27 Sep 2005 Posts: 1490 Location: People's republic of Washington
Posted: Thu Oct 30, 2008 9:13 pm Post subject:
Wow, some of the most thoughtful responses yet! I am so fed up with the republican party it makes my teeth hurt. I wish the libertarian party was a little more legit...I've said it before, but organizing libertarians is like herding cats. If they can't get organized, than they can never do anything but be a sideshow full of anarchists and white supremacist neo-nazis.
Just watching the Ron Paul campaign unravel at the seams this year was evidence enough that it is hard to create unity among very independent individuals. How the founding fathers did it is beyond me, but I do know that the concept of liberty gelled them more than anything else.
Joined: 06 Dec 2004 Posts: 7749 Location: Salt Lake City
Posted: Thu Oct 30, 2008 9:38 pm Post subject:
For third parties to ever participate without performing their role as spoilers we need either choice voting, where you rank your choices.
[1] Ron Paul
[2] John McCain
[ ] Barack Obama
[ ] Ralph Nader
[ ] Bob Bar
Or better yet, I like approval voting, where you can cast as many votes as you like. If you really are undecided, and think either Barack Obama or John McCain would make a good president, go ahead and vote for them both. Heck, vote for all of them if that's the way you feel. But no candidate is ever a spoiler again.
[ ] Ron Paul
[x] John McCain
[x] Barack Obama
[ ] Ralph Nader
[ ] Bob Bar _________________ When all is said and done, it makes great toast!
Joined: 19 Jan 2005 Posts: 3356 Location: The bull's eye
Posted: Thu Oct 30, 2008 9:59 pm Post subject:
JL, what do you have against McWhinney?
Seriously, British Columbia appointed a group of about 100 average citizens to spend one or two years studying any form of voting they chose, and this group canvassed all over the province and selected Single Transferable Voting, which I think is similar to the "choice voting" you mention.
It required 60% approval to pass, and it only got something like 58% (in 2005 - I believe it will be on the ballot again in 2009). This in a province of only a few million.
I really like your "approval voting", however I find it difficult to imagine a country as large and diverse as the USA agreeing on changing the system - there will be short term winners and losers, and I see a currently divided nation that would never agree to change. If it were to happen, I believe it would have to happen in numerous small stages. I can't even imagine what those stages would be, but I can certainly imagine the obstacles that must be overcome.
How the founding fathers did it is beyond me, but I do know that the concept of liberty gelled them more than anything else.
They had a number of advantages compared with the current situation - no long-established political machines; an absentee government that most people hated; and to the extent that there was a political process, it involved only a very modest number of people.
The fate of the Republican Party is about to be determined at this just-announced SECRET meeting.
But there's no mystery about what the outcome will be.
Joined: 19 Jan 2005 Posts: 3356 Location: The bull's eye
Posted: Thu Oct 30, 2008 11:35 pm Post subject:
Seems that the religious bloc will hold out, with Palin giving them a national presence. And I assume they will continue to pursue a strategy of polarization.
Will moderates be able to marginalize them very quickly (ie by the 2010 elections?) Who will the new moderate leaders be - Jindal (sp?) Michael Steele?
Should they attempt to amend the ahem Constitution to get Arnie (and California) into play? Wouldn't have a hope, but could score some political points and generate attention.
Joined: 04 Mar 2005 Posts: 2666 Location: Las Sierras
Posted: Thu Oct 30, 2008 11:57 pm Post subject:
There will be no need for any major realignments in the Republican Party.
Obama and the Democrats are going to be up against some pretty dire realities fiscally and militarily. I think Obama is a smart dude, but here will be no way to finesse all the problems. So failures are inevitable, both real and perceived.
The Republicans will regroup around whatever failures the Democrats have, and the dance will go on. _________________ "A witty saying proves nothing." -Voltaire
Joined: 07 Dec 2004 Posts: 2830 Location: Somewhere Else
Posted: Thu Oct 30, 2008 11:58 pm Post subject:
The problem, from a moderate Repub's point of view, is that without the support of the various far right factions, they don't have the votes fend off the Dems. Now, if the moderate Repubs and the moderate Dems were to join together... _________________ Montani Semper Liberi
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