Joined: 02 Dec 2010 Posts: 933 Location: wandering and wondering
Posted: Tue May 29, 2012 3:27 pm Post subject: Cyclocross bike recommendations
I know there are lots of knowledgeable people here based on that great touring bike thread.
What do you all think about cross bikes?
I have a road/race bike (Cannondale R800-aluminum) and a mountain bike (Specialized Epic Comp-aluminum). Neither is good for commuting to work and I want the bike that will do it all: club rides with roadies, switch out the wheels for singletrack, dirt roads, etc. Just go wherever I want to go and be able to do it on the same bike.
I rode the Specialized tri cross with eyelets for racks and really liked it except it was probably a size too small (56 cm). My road bike is a 60 and my mountain bike is an extra large so I'm thinking my cross bike should be a 58 or at least a 57. The racks will probably be a secondary concern-I'm not going to do a ton of long-distance multi-day touring. I probably want average geometry-not super tight and racey, but steep enough angles to handle the road well.
I don't plan on racing the bike. Casual mountain and road racing are enough for me.
I'm trying to keep cost under 2K and I would consider used bikes in great condition.
Do you specifically want a 'cross bike for riding in 'cross events or do you want an all rounder that can be used for: a) commuting, b) club rides on the road and c) dirt road/single track riding?
I don't race 'cross so take this with a grain of salt. My understanding is that race 'cross bikes tend to favor higher bottom brackets (for clearance) and shorter chainstays (for better traction on steep climbs). The former can cause odd handling on the road and the latter can cause heel strike issues when using rear panniers (which you may or may not want to use for commuting).
I think the place to start is with tires. I find that every bike I've owned has a range of tire widths that it likes. I would suggest looking for a bike that will take tires in the range of 28mm to 40mm. Wider than that, and you're getting into MTB ranges. Narrower than that, and you're in road racing bike ranges. There is a good selection of fast comfortable road tires in the 28-32mm range which will work well for fast, non-competitive club rides. And there is a good selection of cross tires in the 30-35mm range for riding in loose dirt.
If you go this route, you're pretty much going to be looking at bikes with cantilever brakes. I think there are going to be 4 choices:
RACE CROSS BIKES - May have high bottom brackets, short chainstays and no eyelets.
LOADED TOURING BIKES - Will have nice long chainstays for stability and no heel strike but may give up some traction on steep dirt climbs. Frames tend to be heavy to stand up to heavy loads but they are well mannered with bags and make good commuters. Examples include: Surly Long Haul Trucker, Trek 520, Cannondale Touring 1 and Jamis Aurora. I think the Aurora is a great deal. The Cannondales are very light for their strength.
CROSS INSPIRED ALL ROUNDERS - These bikes still have chainstays on the short side but tend to have normally low bottom brackets for better road manner and eyelets for racks and fenders. Examples include: Bianchi Volpe, Salsa Casseroll, Specialized Tricross, Surly Cross Check. I like the Volpes that I've seen and worked on a lot.
RANDO INSPIRED ALL ROUNDERS - These bikes have longer chainstays and take some of their cue from Randonneuring designs. Examples include: Box Dog Pelican, Raleigh Port Townsend, Velo Orange Rando, Rivendell Sam Hillborne. The Port Townsend is the best budge deal of the bunch.
If you can live with cross tires in the 32mm range and narrower, another option is older sport touring bikes with long reach brake calipers. As I understand it from cross riders I know, this used to be the budget way into cross racing. I use this style of bike to do the kind of riding you describe and swap wheels between 30mm road tires and 32mm cross tires. But, these are harder to find used than they used to be. Hard to justify when you buy a bike in any of the categories above for $1000 - $1200. _________________ Dave "Pinnah" Mann
========================
"It is impossible, or not easy, to do noble acts without the proper equipment."
Aristotle, <<Politics>>, 1323a-b, trans Jowett
Joined: 17 Jan 2005 Posts: 10596 Location: Parker, CO and proud of it!
Posted: Tue May 29, 2012 4:52 pm Post subject:
This is exactly what I bought my Cross Check for. While I've put some wide 'cross tires on my SS 29'er wheelset to make it a rigid singletrack bike, it is a horrible singletrack bike.
But, I'm coming from a background of lots of dedicated MTB riding and I thoroughly enjoy a purpose built bike for that.
Sure, as it is set up right now it can tackle fire-roads comfortably and it does ok, but it is still primarily a road machine.
I have some Albatross bars on, 35 wide tires, and is a 1x8. More of a daily-driver, which is what I would call it. It handles the curbs I encounter well-enough, pulls my trailers, handles the rack-seat for the kids, makes me pretty happy. But as with many things, it is jack of all trades and master of none.
If I could do it over I would probably get the Casseroll with the calipers (older style) since my riding has been 99% road oriented and calipers are more thoughtless, IMHO. The Casseroll is a good bike. _________________ "To me Plastic boots are kind of like a condom on the experience." -light skier-
"He who makes a beast of himself gets rid of the pain of being a man." -Dr. Johnson-
Ritchey has reintroduced his steel frame Swiss Cross. I'm building up an old one from the 90's. But relatively inexpensive for the frame, good for racing or commuting. Thomas Frishknect ride his Swiss Cross in the Atlanta Olympic's ride race when he was a late replacement for Tony Rominger and finished top 35 or so. Good all around frame.
Joined: 02 Dec 2010 Posts: 933 Location: wandering and wondering
Posted: Tue May 29, 2012 5:29 pm Post subject:
Pinnah wrote:
Do you specifically want a 'cross bike for riding in 'cross events or do you want an all rounder that can be used for: a) commuting, b) club rides on the road and c) dirt road/single track riding?
I don't race 'cross so take this with a grain of salt. My understanding is that race 'cross bikes tend to favor higher bottom brackets (for clearance) and shorter chainstays (for better traction on steep climbs). The former can cause odd handling on the road and the latter can cause heel strike issues when using rear panniers (which you may or may not want to use for commuting).
I think the place to start is with tires. I find that every bike I've owned has a range of tire widths that it likes. I would suggest looking for a bike that will take tires in the range of 28mm to 40mm. Wider than that, and you're getting into MTB ranges. Narrower than that, and you're in road racing bike ranges. There is a good selection of fast comfortable road tires in the 28-32mm range which will work well for fast, non-competitive club rides. And there is a good selection of cross tires in the 30-35mm range for riding in loose dirt.
If you go this route, you're pretty much going to be looking at bikes with cantilever brakes. I think there are going to be 4 choices:
RACE CROSS BIKES - May have high bottom brackets, short chainstays and no eyelets.
LOADED TOURING BIKES - Will have nice long chainstays for stability and no heel strike but may give up some traction on steep dirt climbs. Frames tend to be heavy to stand up to heavy loads but they are well mannered with bags and make good commuters. Examples include: Surly Long Haul Trucker, Trek 520, Cannondale Touring 1 and Jamis Aurora. I think the Aurora is a great deal. The Cannondales are very light for their strength.
CROSS INSPIRED ALL ROUNDERS - These bikes still have chainstays on the short side but tend to have normally low bottom brackets for better road manner and eyelets for racks and fenders. Examples include: Bianchi Volpe, Salsa Casseroll, Specialized Tricross, Surly Cross Check. I like the Volpes that I've seen and worked on a lot.
RANDO INSPIRED ALL ROUNDERS - These bikes have longer chainstays and take some of their cue from Randonneuring designs. Examples include: Box Dog Pelican, Raleigh Port Townsend, Velo Orange Rando, Rivendell Sam Hillborne. The Port Townsend is the best budge deal of the bunch.
If you can live with cross tires in the 32mm range and narrower, another option is older sport touring bikes with long reach brake calipers. As I understand it from cross riders I know, this used to be the budget way into cross racing. I use this style of bike to do the kind of riding you describe and swap wheels between 30mm road tires and 32mm cross tires. But, these are harder to find used than they used to be. Hard to justify when you buy a bike in any of the categories above for $1000 - $1200.
Thanks Pinnah,
I'll try to address your questions/points in relative order:
I don't want to race in cross events and probably would not use this bike for racing at all. It would primarily be for training, commuting, club road rides, dirt road, fire road and single track. I'd like to be able to take it anywhere except for the most technical terrain where a mountain bike is required. I plan on using two sets of interchangeable wheels: the Easton aluminum road wheels off my Cannondale for faster road riding and beefier stock wheels with knobbier tires for mostly off road.
I'm thinking I don't want really long or really short chainstays: probably just long enough to accommodate larger tires, but I don't foresee putting anything larger than 35 mm on this bike. I probably would not use a rear rack but I do like the idea of having eyelets just in case. Certainly not a requirement though. Most importantly, I want the bike to climb well and be snappy on the road without being having such aggressive geometry that centuries and off-road riding become a challenge. Something with a happy medium; same goes for bottom bracket height-not super low or high, but something good enough for most road and off-road conditions.
The race cross bikes seem like a realistic option. I just think I would want one that is a bit more laid back for comfort over long distances and without a really high bottom bracket.
I think the loaded touring bikes will be too heavy and slow, and I'm not planning on doing much heavy/long touring on the bike. I should be able to fit everything I need in a large under-seat bag, backpack, kid-stroller (I have a one year old baby and will probably do A FEW of these kinds of rides with family), etc.
The cross-inspired all rounders also seem like an excellent option, perhaps the best for me. I really liked the tri cross and would have bought it if it was a 58 instead of 56. As long as the bottom bracket isn't really low and can still clear basic stuff on the trail I will happily accept the tradeoff that it will handle better on the road. Speaking of clearance, ideally I would like to have a smaller double gear setup up front with a larger gear spread in the cassette to handle clearance better and reduce weight. I really need to check out the other bikes you listed in this category. Can you think of any more?
Honestly, I'm not really sure what rando bikes even are. Is there any reason I would prefer this to cross all rounder or even race cross?
Not a CX bike but here's a nice steel frame "do it all" road bike that will take up to 32 or 35mm tires and has mounts for fenders and racks: http://allcitycycles.com/bikes/mr_pink.
My understanding is the "All City" brand is made by QBP - same company behind Salsa and Surly and many local bike shops have accounts with QBP and could order it.
Haven't seen one in real life but I'm getting really interested in the frameset for road bike use, to replace an alu frame / carbon fork. _________________ --ts01
Joined: 02 Dec 2010 Posts: 933 Location: wandering and wondering
Posted: Tue May 29, 2012 5:51 pm Post subject:
climbhoser wrote:
This is exactly what I bought my Cross Check for. While I've put some wide 'cross tires on my SS 29'er wheelset to make it a rigid singletrack bike, it is a horrible singletrack bike.
But, I'm coming from a background of lots of dedicated MTB riding and I thoroughly enjoy a purpose built bike for that.
Sure, as it is set up right now it can tackle fire-roads comfortably and it does ok, but it is still primarily a road machine.
I have some Albatross bars on, 35 wide tires, and is a 1x8. More of a daily-driver, which is what I would call it. It handles the curbs I encounter well-enough, pulls my trailers, handles the rack-seat for the kids, makes me pretty happy. But as with many things, it is jack of all trades and master of none.
If I could do it over I would probably get the Casseroll with the calipers (older style) since my riding has been 99% road oriented and calipers are more thoughtless, IMHO. The Casseroll is a good bike.
How does the cross check differ from the tri cross? Sounds like it might be good for me. I can't afford to have the master of any trade but I'm happy to try to master the what the bike can do on various kinds of terrain.
Brakes just need to be big enough to get around bigger (not huge) tires and I do not need or want disk brakes. I'll have to see if any LBS's carry the Casseroll.
Thanks.
Edited to add: I found out the cross check is a Surly. Like it but think I would rather have compact frame with sloping top tube.
Last edited by jonesinski on Tue May 29, 2012 6:50 pm; edited 1 time in total
Interesting options, however I need to be able to see and actually ride the bike before ordering something online. I would consider it if I could find it somewhere around Salt Lake City area.
Joined: 02 Dec 2010 Posts: 933 Location: wandering and wondering
Posted: Tue May 29, 2012 6:09 pm Post subject:
Dirk wrote:
If you really liked the TriCross, why not just get one in your size? It is a generally well-regarded bike for your intended purpose.
Well, two things:
1: It was last year's tricross and they had a great deal on it but only had the small size left. They said I could fit onto it if I liked it, but it really felt short and I need to buy the right bike, not just a bike that I could squeeze into.
2: Why not learn about and ride as many bikes as I can before I put down alot of money on one when I could have gotten something better if I just put more time into it? I would like to ride the 58 and compare it with other bikes.
Honestly, I'm not really sure what rando bikes even are. Is there any reason I would prefer this to cross all rounder or even race cross?
Randonneuring is sort of like century rides taken very, very, very seriously with a bunch of rules and done at absurd distances, often through the night. Randonneurs are to distance cycling as Scott Schmidt is to free skiing. See: http://www.rusa.org/
Randonneur as a bike style is a French style of bike specifically built for "rando" events. The British (and US) approach to all 'rounders was to take a frame and add and subtract components as you like. Put on fenders to commute. Pop them off for a club ride. In contrast, a true Randonneuring bike is built as a comprehensive whole. Integrated custom fitted fenders. Dyno hubs to run lights which are fully integrated into the rack and frame. They also typically have a small rack on the front to accommodate a large handle bar bag to carry food and jackets.
Here's one made by Peter Weigle.
"Rando" is becoming the new buzz word - the new black. Salsa is selling the Casseroll as being good for "randos" on their web site (even though they don't use a traditional rando geometry), hence the little rando style rack on the front. Ditto for the Raleigh Port Townsend.
Typically the rando inspired all rounders will have a bit longer chainstays and a bit more rake. Crudely, more rake helps with front loads. I think (and people will disagree with this) that bike with more rake work better for long distance road rides. Longer chainstays in this range offer no downsides that I can notice. When I spin out on dirt climbs, shorter stays aren't going to save me.
In short, cross inspired all rounders and rando inspired all rounders are going to be very close to each other. Two different paths to the same all rounder destination, as it were.
If you want to keep it at $1200 or under, I would put these bikes on the short list:
+ Salsa Casseroll
+ Raleigh Port Townsend
+ Specialized Tricross
+ Bianchi Volpe
A word of encouragement.... what you are describing is very, very doable. Here's my all rounder. Use it for commuting, light touring and rough-stuff dirt/single track/pavement mixed long day rides. I keep 2 sets of wheels, just like you describe and move between them as the ride dictates. Mostly I keep fatter road tires on it (I prefer them for my riding) and then swap in the cross wheels for hairball rides.
s12s-rightside-bags by Pinnah, on Flickr _________________ Dave "Pinnah" Mann
========================
"It is impossible, or not easy, to do noble acts without the proper equipment."
Aristotle, <<Politics>>, 1323a-b, trans Jowett
Joined: 02 Dec 2010 Posts: 933 Location: wandering and wondering
Posted: Tue May 29, 2012 6:31 pm Post subject:
ts01 wrote:
Not a CX bike but here's a nice steel frame "do it all" road bike that will take up to 32 or 35mm tires and has mounts for fenders and racks: http://allcitycycles.com/bikes/mr_pink.
My understanding is the "All City" brand is made by QBP - same company behind Salsa and Surly and many local bike shops have accounts with QBP and could order it.
Haven't seen one in real life but I'm getting really interested in the frameset for road bike use, to replace an alu frame / carbon fork.
I like it and would consider it if I can find it in a shop or used. Never had a serious steel bike but I have no reservations seeing how it compares to aluminum or carbon. In fact, I'm pretty sure I don't want a carbon frame as I would worry about durability.
Joined: 02 Dec 2010 Posts: 933 Location: wandering and wondering
Posted: Tue May 29, 2012 6:43 pm Post subject:
Thanks again, Pinnah. Certain rando bikes might be OK but that Weigle does not seem to be the kind of thing I want. I worry that it would be too heavy and not perform well on the trail. I love riding hills. Can't open your pick because I'm at work but I'm really leaning toward cross all-rounder at this point.
Joined: 17 Jan 2005 Posts: 10596 Location: Parker, CO and proud of it!
Posted: Tue May 29, 2012 6:49 pm Post subject:
jonesinski wrote:
climbhoser wrote:
This is exactly what I bought my Cross Check for. While I've put some wide 'cross tires on my SS 29'er wheelset to make it a rigid singletrack bike, it is a horrible singletrack bike.
But, I'm coming from a background of lots of dedicated MTB riding and I thoroughly enjoy a purpose built bike for that.
Sure, as it is set up right now it can tackle fire-roads comfortably and it does ok, but it is still primarily a road machine.
I have some Albatross bars on, 35 wide tires, and is a 1x8. More of a daily-driver, which is what I would call it. It handles the curbs I encounter well-enough, pulls my trailers, handles the rack-seat for the kids, makes me pretty happy. But as with many things, it is jack of all trades and master of none.
If I could do it over I would probably get the Casseroll with the calipers (older style) since my riding has been 99% road oriented and calipers are more thoughtless, IMHO. The Casseroll is a good bike.
How does the cross check differ from the tri cross? Sounds like it might be good for me. I can't afford to have the master of any trade but I'm happy to try to master the what the bike can do on various kinds of terrain.
Brakes just need to be big enough to get around bigger (not huge) tires and I do not need or want disk brakes. I'll have to see if any LBS's carry the Casseroll.
Thanks.
Tricross is aluminum with a carbon fork and comes with brifters. Cross Check is steel through and through and comes with barcons.
IMHO, beyond the shifters they're spec'ed with, the main differences are in frame material and geometry. I've seen both in Cyclocross races, but the Tricross would be my pick for a racing bike. I would also take the Tricross into a group ride before I took the Cross Checl. However, for commuting and errand running, the Cross Check wins.
I rode a Tricross once and did like it, but being aluminum it is slightly more harsh. For every day the steel of the Cross Check is super nice. Neither will ride singletrack very well, as mentioned. Using a small path to shortcut on a commute is one thing, but riding extended singletrack is another.
If you're going to be more towards the commute/errand run end of the spectrum then the All-City or Cross Check would be a great bike. If you're more towards the weekend ride on road end, the Tricross would be better.
Actually, upon seeing the All-City I'm brainstorming how to sell my Cross Check to buy one of those! _________________ "To me Plastic boots are kind of like a condom on the experience." -light skier-
"He who makes a beast of himself gets rid of the pain of being a man." -Dr. Johnson-
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