[robrox]

High-speed arrests and bad puns aside, the last few remarks remind us it is a sliding scale.

Being adept at footwork, whether still on skins or on bootpack slides the scale in one direction just as much as a cautious nature might slide it in the other.

I'm glad the ski pole self arrest was pointed out. Modern carbide tipped poles might do a good deal better than the blunt tip aluminum poles we had when my folks taught me how to self-arrest. Actually saw an old school self-arrest on the Starr trail, amazing such an elderly gent could make those moves so quickly. His arrest was held long enough to swing skis down below and he was able to pop right back up and resume skiing. When he stopped, I spoke with him to see if he was okay. He said he was.

I was still 16, very much in awe of what he had done. Then went on to practice much harder than before, all the rest of that day.

Whatever you choose, practice!

PS..Practicing the ski pole self arrest is no substitute for real ski mountaineering tools. At the risk of overkill: Ice axe or Whippet (or Condor) ownership is not a license to slay 55 degree rock bound couloirs. Get some instruction or proper guidance and then practice. I hasten to point out that the main function of these tools is to allow additional stability on the way up, not to make up for lack of skill or balance.

Yes, they can be handy if you slip...if you have the practice.
_________________
"Moderate is not the new Low" - Chris Joosen, USFS Lead Snow Ranger (Tuckerman Ravine, White Mountains National Forest)

[JPL]

[Mitch]

I'll never forget the time when my son Neil was eight years old and we were yo-yo-ing a nice corn slope off the side of Baldy Bowl. Neil was in his alpine boots on Ramers and it was really easy for him to climb up with crampons.

Two crusty old mountaineers from the Sierra Club Southern Section rolled up and chewed me out for letting him climb in crampons with ski poles. "That boy needs to be using an axe if he's going to be climbing in crampons," they said. "If you want to kill yourself trying to self-arrest with poles that's one thing, but don't make that bad decision for him."

It seemed to me that they were exaggerating the situation as the corn was soft, and that they were butting in where they had no right, and yet their point was not lost on me. After that we did a lot of practice self-arresting with both poles and an axe. It's good to know how to use both, and the key indeed is speed in getting into the arrest position right away.

[James]

[JPL]

You know James it occurs to me that my use of the laughing icon might be misinterpreted as me laughing at your good points rather than your comment about Seinfeld reruns, if that's the case, my apologies.

And no, I don't "set the guidelines" for anyone, however I do agree with you that guidelines are very useful for those who lack experience. Unfortunately, on these forums most of us tend to view the topic through our own prisms, rather than the OP's. And then we get defensive, as if we are being told we are doing it all wrong. Here the OP is clearly completely inexperienced in the use of crampons and is looking for advice.

Now you are obviously experienced and have become comfortable with front-pointing up a couloir, or even a cornice, using ski poles with a relatively tiny pick attached to the pole grips. However, I don't think the OP is well served by your indication to him that this is a good place from which to begin. And it's certainly not what a mountaineering instructor would recommend.

Try to come to this thread from a beginner's point of view and perhaps you'll have a better understanding of where I'm coming from in my comments to the OP.

[ghostofcarl]

[stevesliva]

Most folks have talked about the whippet(s) being great when you're kick stepping. Front-pointing? eek.

From my perspective, there have been instances where I didn't expect things to get dicy (uh, whoops, there's not usually cornice climbing required to gain this ridge, but there goes my fearless comrade, up and over) and when they did, I had ski poles in my hands-- whippet would've been better than nothing, and I would not have been fiddling with getting the ax from the pack on a steep slope. That was w/o crampons.

And there have been instances where I was kick-stepping big enough steps with crampons that another party followed without even using crampons. Whippet seems fine there, too. The crampons make things far, far more secure, even where they're not quite necessary. Think James has consistently said this is how he tends to use them, and the accompanying whippet.

[B]

We are talking skiing here, right?

The whippet has a narrower range of applicability, but in my opinion is often a more targeted, elegant, and quite possibly safer solution within that range when compared to an axe.

It's real strength lies in the near-instantaneous deployment. Your hand is right where it needs to be on the tool any time you are using a whippet. The pick is also most likely ubiquitously positioned for rapid use in the event of a slip. That is not inherently the case with an axe, which can be held a multitude of ways and in a variety of orientations (often strapped to the back of a pack).

A whippet may not be as good as an axe for arresting already built up momentum, but it may be better than an axe at preventing you from gaining that momentum in the first place. The split seconds count.

My guess is that the "rule" about always having an axe in your hand when your feet are sharp was conceived prior to the invention of the whippet.

[James]

[dschane]

Good points here regarding potentially wise and not-so-wise uses of the Whippet. I personally have used it only for glacier travel since stopping a fall in skis would be challenging enough and ski traversing with one pole and an ice axe is inefficient and annoying. I haven't taken a Whippet skiing since I'd probably impale myself on it.

When it comes to self-belays and quick anchors, this is my ice axe. There are many like it but this one is mine. My ice axe is my best friend. It is my life. I must master it as I must master my life. Without me, my ice axe is useless. Without my ice axe I am useless.

[JPL]

[ghostofcarl]

the cutoff tips on axes like the Raven Ultra suck for plunging/self belay, ime. Which is why I carry an ice axe

I'm not arguing they are "equivalent" and I'm not sure who is other than a strawman. For a number of ski situations, I, and others on this thread think a whippet is more useful. For "classic mountaineering technique slogfests" an ice axe is superior.

[SteveK]

[AT Apostle]

[robrox]