Joined: 20 Oct 2005 Posts: 17733 Location: following Diogenes, but the ba$tard threw away the lamp so I'm just stumbling along in the dark!
Posted: Sat Apr 28, 2012 11:52 am Post subject:
jonesinski wrote:
Race. ..... Nothing improves your skills more.
Yup! As long as you use it for skill improvement and don't get sucked into the pain, it's a sure fire way to build your game.
There is another way: Hare-and-Hounds! Play that with your MTBs/Kayacks/running shoes/etc amongst your group and you will gain a lot of skills. This way you avoid the pain and expense of committed racing but still get the benefits of competition.
Quote:
practice on pavement
Indeed!
Scared crap out of myself in a National/Internationl class criterium, drifting all the fast turns. Seriously! The apexes of the fast turns were all blackened by the tires leaving streaks of rubber...especially on the sweetest lines through the turns. It was lucky for me I raced a lot of Cross and was used to a bit of sliding....the local crits diddn't offer that drifting on the pavement experience.
Anyway, play chase games with your more skilled friends and you will learn this wonderful skill. Trust me on this, it will add grace (and possibly Grace) to your game! _________________ "Moderate is not the new Low" - Chris Joosen, USFS Lead Snow Ranger (Tuckerman Ravine, White Mountains National Forest)
Joined: 20 Oct 2005 Posts: 17733 Location: following Diogenes, but the ba$tard threw away the lamp so I'm just stumbling along in the dark!
Posted: Sat Apr 28, 2012 11:54 am Post subject:
edgeworker wrote:
Watching the Worlds (downhill) at Windham the last few years vastly improved my biking. Seeing what was really possible prompted me to go to my closet and get out my bigger set of balls. This translated to my skiing as well. The Worlds are going to be at Windham in June this year - worth the effort to see this show.
A TTips picnic?? _________________ "Moderate is not the new Low" - Chris Joosen, USFS Lead Snow Ranger (Tuckerman Ravine, White Mountains National Forest)
Watching the Worlds (downhill) at Windham the last few years vastly improved my biking. Seeing what was really possible prompted me to go to my closet and get out my bigger set of balls. This translated to my skiing as well. The Worlds are going to be at Windham in June this year - worth the effort to see this show.
Joined: 06 Dec 2004 Posts: 3369 Location: Castilo de Dobish, Golden CO
Posted: Sat Apr 28, 2012 12:28 pm Post subject:
don't be scared of the turn. Trust your tires, and never use your brakes when you are in the middle of the turn.
I used to have a terrible time carving a bike, but I found that the more I get into the turny, swoopy fun stuf, the better I get at it. I went from a 6.6" bike to a fully rigid single speed 69er, and believe it or not, it was probably the best thing I could have done for my technique. I couldn't rely on the the suspension to do anything for me, and every time I touched the brake, the bike would straighten up and throw me out of the turn.
When I got back on my squishy bike, I followed the same rules, I just did it a little faster. I am by no means an awesome carver, but sort of like skiing, once you feel the turn happening, you sort of just let the bike continue to do the work.
What tires are you running on the bike? Certain tires are designed to break away at lower angles, and some of them are a little more rounded so the transitions are smoother... _________________ Smile when you're going down, it looks more graceful.
Joined: 06 Dec 2004 Posts: 705 Location: The Jefferson Institute
Posted: Sat Apr 28, 2012 4:27 pm Post subject:
I was looking for some good photos to post and I came across this one.
I'm screwed obviously and I'm going to go over the bars. Then it hit me. I can't descend on clipless pedals. I've tried them and liked the added performance for climbing but felt it wasn't worth the trade off for the loss of downhill performance.
So if you're riding clipless pedals maybe give flats a try. _________________ Well, let's play chess.
Joined: 26 Oct 2007 Posts: 433 Location: Golden, CO
Posted: Sun Apr 29, 2012 1:26 am Post subject:
Two points that haven't been brought up:
1. Lowering your seat really helps with cornering. I resisted getting a dropper post until I found one so cheap used that I could easily sell it for a profit. It's nice for going down steep stuff, but what I really like it for is that dropping your post allows you to lean the bike independently of your body without the saddle running into your inner thigh.
2. You have to learn to not freak out by your tires drifting sideways a bit sometimes. I s'pose this would be more slarving than carving, but it's something you need to get used to if you're going to be comfortable with going around non-bermed corners quickly.
Also, bikes absolutely turn by leaning. Rather than go through the physics, I simply submit the following picture and ask how these guys can go in a circle if it's not for the leaning. I mean, the front wheel is turned the wrong way.
This image came up while I was searching for the one above, and the excuse for posting it is part of why I decided to break my cardinal rule of not getting into an argument on teh internets (that and bbense seems to be a reasonable enough guythat I don't think it'll turn into a clusterfark ):
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edited to add: "also available on laser disc" (!!!)
Joined: 20 Oct 2005 Posts: 17733 Location: following Diogenes, but the ba$tard threw away the lamp so I'm just stumbling along in the dark!
Posted: Sun Apr 29, 2012 12:31 pm Post subject:
Feldybikes picture of motorcycles crossed up and powering in a turn is wonderful and all, but there is a huge difference for human-powered cycles.
Pedals typically cannot be used to make power when the h-p bike is angled and carving or slarving, crossed up or oversteered. The motorcycles can put down the power and make for more points of control in such turns.
Still, getting some angulation is important to the h-p cyclist. You will note that the motorcyclists are all using inclination, not angulation. This is due entirely to the ability to lay down power in the turn as part of the directional control.
Great pic, but unless you have a lot of gravity on your side (ie steeply angled terrain for the turn) and a good berm too, go with angulation and seriously weight the outside foot at BDC. _________________ "Moderate is not the new Low" - Chris Joosen, USFS Lead Snow Ranger (Tuckerman Ravine, White Mountains National Forest)
Joined: 06 Mar 2006 Posts: 347 Location: The Roarin' 40s
Posted: Sun Apr 29, 2012 12:41 pm Post subject:
carbo, there are a lot of variables at play...having said that, what has worked very well for me are presented below (as evidenced by pulling away from guys in turn-rich areas of race courses, only to be pulled back on climbs ) i think 1-3 have been covered above, but 4-6 are georider originals (at least i never saw them anywhere, just discovered with a lot of t&e):
1) laying the bike over, but keeping a centered, or even slightly forward-leaning aspect to the body in relation to the wheels while keeping the body more or less upright (i.e., not leaning the body over with the bike lean)
the forward lean suggestion may sound counter-intuitive, and is certainly slope-dependent, but it does 2 things. it puts ultimate traction on the front wheel and it provides for a very aggressive attacking body aspect, getting you through the turn faster.
2) leading yourself through the turn by eyeing only your upcoming line.
3) pre-braking at the turn's start with minimal to no front brake...again, slope-dependent on the F brake idea. pre-braking typically allows for an acceleration to be made at about 25% of the turn remaining.
4) maybe this doesn't apply to carving, but remember that the back wheel is "trailering" behind the front wheel, and if you've ever been pulling a trailer with your car or truck and didn't allow for the trailer in a turn, well...
5) i have found that semi-slicks boosted my cornering immensely, b/c the side knobs are the only knobs, you reallly have to concentrate on them to make a good fast turn happen.
6) a little cornering trick i really have found useful is to concentrate on dropping the inside elbow into the turn. so if turning left, concentrate on dropping the left elbow to not only initiate the turn but to solidify middle part of the turn so that you don't wash out. and i don't mean slide out, i mean wash out to the outside of the turn b/c the cornering wasn't aggressive enough.
dude, as you may be able to tell, this is one of my favorite subjects! thanks for starting this thread...and on top of that, i've got no shortage of time to sit on the internet...i'm convalescing from a severe thumb laceration that severed a tendon and nerve. let's just say i won't be doing any MTB cornering for a while so this is a positive outlet. _________________ Beginner's Mind, Zen Mind
Pedals typically cannot be used to make power when the h-p bike is angled and carving or slarving, crossed up or oversteered. The motorcycles can put down the power and make for more points of control in such turns.
Yes, but gravity also provides power if you going steep and fast enough. However, it's rare you can drift on an MTB as not often you can power through a turn without pedaling and the bike is both angulating and being slightly steered. _________________ Drive the cuff
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