Ron, there are thousands of people in the PSIA and no one person represents the PSIA and not all agree or teach the same things.
FK james! Someone has to make this shit up !!
It's like some sort of government certification!
http://www.thesnowpros.org/index.php/PSIA-AASI/profiles/michael-rogan/alpine
Anyways, the real purpose of all education should be to train skeptics! not a$$ lickers! _________________ Speak and remove all doubt..
No one cares that you CAN'T tele!
True enough, and yet, for the reasons mentioned, you aren't going to find anyone teaching tele skiers to double pole plant.
As for teaching techniqes that work for everyone, of course I'm speaking in general terms. And as for letting it go, I'm fine with that if Ron will agree to keep his dpp love out of the beginner advice threads. Even better, off the happy forum completely. It's the right thing to do, otherwise, ttips history shows, this conflict is likely to continue whether I participate or not.
Anyways, the real purpose of all education should be to train skeptics! not a$$ lickers!
I actually agree with this, but that's more about philosophy than the nuts and bolts of teaching folks to telemark.
And there you have the source of the conflict, Ron argues philosophically (endlesslt) while others are focused on helping novices improve their telemark skiing. Learning the double pole plant simply does not help the vast majority of tele skiers get better. As you and Paul Parker correctly point out, it tends to reinforce bad habits.
Things are getting a little tepid around here ......
So, obviously, there's good DPP form and bad DPP form; we've seen waaaay too many examples of the bad (defensive, timid, too long poles/hands above head. avoiding fall line, etc.) - any body got the good (agressive/attacking, short poles/hands no higher than the waist, short fall line turns)??
Joined: 24 Jan 2005 Posts: 7012 Location: Castle Rock, CO
Posted: Sat Apr 21, 2012 10:28 pm Post subject:
Paul Lutes wrote:
Things are getting a little tepid around here ......
So, obviously, there's good DPP form and bad DPP form; we've seen waaaay too many examples of the bad (defensive, timid, too long poles/hands above head. avoiding fall line, etc.) - any body got the good (agressive/attacking, short poles/hands no higher than the waist, short fall line turns)??
Look at the video in the first post in this thread. I am not going to say it is good form but he does it well and is fun to watch.
Good point above about the philosophical argument versus the practical teaching side of things
Things are getting a little tepid around here ......
So, obviously, there's good DPP form and bad DPP form; we've seen waaaay too many examples of the bad (defensive, timid, too long poles/hands above head. avoiding fall line, etc.) - any body got the good (agressive/attacking, short poles/hands no higher than the waist, short fall line turns)??
Here's a good visual on the upper left..From "Ski" magazine, Jan 2011..The author writes for Ski and teaches..As you say, I approach(ed) the subject of DPP from a theoretical point of view. The reactions were/are so severe and intolerant when discussed in the main forum, it led me to take a much deeper and closer look @ the subject. I found it to be a much more complicated matter than one
would be led to believe if all one did was follow what has become the currently "orthodox" telemark teaching. I was also interested in skiing better in really bad , cruddy conditions, chop, irregular bumps, crusts etc , and happened to notice that the "forbidden" move seemed to be fairly common in "bad" snow.
Here's a vid of a forum member using a little DPP in bumps.http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IP6X1MdP6fg#t=02m18s _________________ Speak and remove all doubt..
No one cares that you CAN'T tele!
Joined: 24 Jan 2005 Posts: 7012 Location: Castle Rock, CO
Posted: Sun Apr 22, 2012 6:15 pm Post subject:
vdrifter11 wrote:
the "forbidden" move seemed to be fairly common in "bad" snow.
Please define fairly common. I must be uncommon because I very rarely do it and every one I ski with very rarely does it. No matter what the snow is like.
^^^Meaning "not hard at all to find skiers using it--decent and even excellent skiers "..Also not hard to find it being taught as a good move to know for bad snow . DPP is also far more common in Europe than the USA..but that's because we always know what's best ! _________________ Speak and remove all doubt..
No one cares that you CAN'T tele!
I was also interested in skiing better in really bad , cruddy conditions, chop, irregular bumps, crusts etc , and happened to notice that the "forbidden" move seemed to be fairly common in "bad" snow.
So you watch desperate skiers in desperate snow making desperate moves and conclude that they are all using the best approach to the conditions? Would you also watch a drowning swimmer to figure out the best kind of swim stroke to emulate?
Want to learn to ski better in crud, chop, crust, etc.? Then first recognize this: The fundamental techniques of good skiing do not change with the snow.
Watch the Big Tim videos here on Ttips. Tim skis everything using the same solid form and with strong technique, from hard snow to soft powder, wind-affected crust and crud to corn, his fundamental approach does not change. It's largely the same with Gwen. They don't suddenly start double pole planting.
Go watch these skiers ski firm steep windpacked snow (nature's groomed) on TeleVision in "Catch Your Dreams," then watch the three recent videos, Return of Big Tim, Beautiful Morning and Splat Day. In the latter you'll see them, along with some p-turners, skiing highly variable, wind-affected 'powder,' and in Splat Day, some very deep, heavy crud. They don't change their style or approach at all, and the tiny adjustments they make are barely perceptible. This is how good skiers ski bad snow, and it starts with fundamentally sound technique.
Ron, I'm not going to pretend to be able to critique the fundamentals of your skiing based upon the few still pictures that have been posted here. I would bet good money though that your problems with junk snow are rooted in poor fundamentals. I would recommend that you stop looking for shortcuts and crutches, instead, go back and start from scratch.
Forget also about trying to work it out yourself, and random tips from well-meaning folks aren't going to get you where you want to be either, instead go back to square one and take a few lessons, and/or participate in a clinic or two or three. Use a more systematic approach to your learning (we truly are all 'still learning' btw) and I am sure you will be able to develop the fundamental skills you need to be able to ski a wide variety of conditions with skill and confidence, just like Big Tim and Gwen.
Last edited by Pat-n-the-hat on Sun Apr 22, 2012 7:21 pm; edited 1 time in total
From the Home of Telemark itself ! You would think , James, skiers in Mordegal would know better! A lot of DPP
in a rather short clip..A clip meant to showcase Mordegal, the birthplace of telemark!
http://www.youtube.com/watch?list=PLDBD7210B8079B7D3&feature=player_detailpage&v=QcHdpuA43GY _________________ Speak and remove all doubt..
No one cares that you CAN'T tele!
Last edited by vdrifter11 on Sun Apr 22, 2012 8:38 pm; edited 1 time in total
I was also interested in skiing better in really bad , cruddy conditions, chop, irregular bumps, crusts etc , and happened to notice that the "forbidden" move seemed to be fairly common in "bad" snow.
So you watch desperate skiers in desperate snow making desperate moves and conclude that they are all using the best approach to the conditions? Would you also watch a drowning swimmer to figure out the best kind of swim stroke to emulate?
1) Where is it you are seeing all these desperate skiers in the clips i posted ? So, you start with assumptions that don't mean much .. I think very few in this forum can keep up with hideaka 2) you have no idea how i ski. but that's the fun of ttips ..yea, sure, i desperately flail with the upperbody tryin to control my fear as i careen from tree to tree or bump to bump..I ski every run i want to ski on all the local hills , off groomers and out of bounds. I ski with some excellent former racers and sometimes some instructors.. we have all the fun we can, and really don't worry about all the posing and prancing ppl around here think have something to do with skiing..Wow i am amazed that you don't make any changes to ski crud and bumps ! you don't even bring the skis a bit closer ? now that's amazing! _________________ Speak and remove all doubt..
No one cares that you CAN'T tele!
Joined: 24 Jan 2005 Posts: 7012 Location: Castle Rock, CO
Posted: Sun Apr 22, 2012 7:40 pm Post subject:
I would not call those skiers movements desperate but I have yet to see one posted that is making movements I would want to emulate. All of the ones you have posted are very dramatic with lots of inefficient movements
As per what Pat is saying every time I see a vid of big Tim or Gwen I watch them thinking that is how I strive to ski. Single pole plant and all.
Does it not seem very very odd, James , that the people in Mordegal take a very relaxed view of DPP ? I mean, christ, in the very birthplace of telemark they film skiers using DPP and do not hesitate to put them in their promotional vids! There seems to be a very obvious split of opinions between the USA and Europe on the subject/technique. _________________ Speak and remove all doubt..
No one cares that you CAN'T tele!
Joined: 24 Jan 2005 Posts: 7012 Location: Castle Rock, CO
Posted: Sun Apr 22, 2012 9:14 pm Post subject:
For a person who prides them self on their use of the English language you have a funny way with your word choice.
vdrifter11 wrote:
led me to take a much deeper and closer look @ the subject.
What this really means is you scoured the internet for vids showing DPP and found one article That briefly mentions DPP.
vdrifter11 wrote:
"forbidden" move seemed to be fairly common in "bad" snow".
In Ron speak this really means this.
vdrifter11 wrote:
Meaning "not hard at all to find skiers using it.
vdrifter11 wrote:
that the people in Mordegal take a very relaxed view of DPP.
You know this by watching one video produced in Norway.
FWIW I have been to two clinics this year where the topic was foreign countries teaching and skiing techniques. The topics were brought home by the National Team from the Euro Inter ski. The countries represented in the segments I went to were US, Canada, Australia, Finland, Norway, Sweden and Poland. Funny how the DPP never came up and to be blunt I am glad I ski and learn in the US.
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