Racers/skiers can use double pole plants effectively on moderately off-set sections of a course or run, where the racer/skier can stay practically square to the skis throughout the most of the turn, without creating a big difference between the directions of travel of upper body and the skis at the end of the turn. This can apply to others in the videos you have been posting as well.
Joni is commenting from the perspective of an all-mountain recreational skier, a perspective likely shared by 99% of ttips visitors. If rec skiers get in the habit of double pole planting they will be in real trouble when they progress to terrain where, for purposes of speed control, it's impossible to stay square to the skis throughout the turn.
As an instructor, I've spent hundreds of hours teaching rec skiers how to use poles properly, and I can tell you that it would be a kind of instructor malpractice to do anything but warn students away from double pole planting. If I were a race coach I might have a different perspective, but again, this site and its member's focus is all-mountain skiing, not racing.
Fact is Ron, your continual ranting about the virtues of double pole planting can only harm the majority of folks in this setting. You really should give it a rest.
Racers/skiers can use double pole plants effectively on moderately off-set sections of a course or run, where the racer/skier can stay practically square to the skis throughout the most of the turn, without creating a big difference between the directions of travel of upper body and the skis at the end of the turn. This can apply to others in the videos you have been posting as well.
Joni is commenting from the perspective of an all-mountain recreational skier, a perspective likely shared by 99% of ttips visitors. If rec skiers get in the habit of double pole planting they will be in real trouble when they progress to terrain where, for purposes of speed control, it's impossible to stay square to the skis throughout the turn.
As an instructor, I've spent hundreds of hours teaching rec skiers how to use poles properly, and I can tell you that it would be a kind of instructor malpractice to do anything but warn students away from double pole planting. If I were a race coach I might have a different perspective, but again, this site and its member's focus is all-mountain skiing, not racing.
Fact is Ron, your continual ranting about the virtues of double pole planting can only harm the majority of folks in this setting. You really should give it a rest.
hey dummy..read what i say above about being FAIRLY STRAIGHT in the fall line.And that fkin article by the esteemed alpine expert is not about racing ;it's about skiign CRUD! Before you try much, try reading both what I said to James , and then the article..
I do not suggest that ANYONE DPP as some norm.. I very seldom dpp myself, but to say it's not @ least a good trick or tool to have available, or to suggest it can never REALLY be appropriate is just beyond belief. What's the goal of ski education, to produce mindless parroting? _________________ Speak and remove all doubt..
No one cares that you CAN'T tele!
Last edited by vdrifter11 on Fri Apr 20, 2012 10:09 pm; edited 2 times in total
Now Ron, this is what I'm talking about. Where did Harry insult you? He didn't, and yet your reply to him starts with "hey dummy." What's the point? To escalate? Haven't you had enough of that already? I guess not.
I suspect you won't be around here much longer. Have a nice life. I hope whatever your problem is you can get a handle on it someday.
What's the goal of ski education, to produce mindless parroting?
One of the goals of ski instruction is to avoid reinforcing bad habits, and as Paul Parker says on page 155 of Free-Heel Skiing, "double poling or planting the uphill pole only reinforces bad habits."
Parker continues, "some skiers use double pole plants for security in that unstable transition between turns. For some quick-footed skiers these pole plants work-- especially when making tight turns in big steep bumps. But for others this habit squares the body on the skis so that quick turning requires propulsion off the two plated poles-- a difficult feat in soft snow. That's why we practice single pole plants."
I will add that for many years one of the major goals of telemark ski instruction has been to get students away from that style of skiing where the skier appears to be rowing down the hill, hence the extra emphasis on ditching that old dpp dogma on this, a telemark skiing web site.
Does this mean the dpp can be a useful tool for racers, of course, and I acknowledged this in my previous post. It might even be a useful tool in crud, as your own 'esteemed' authority advocates, although there are better ways to ski crud that do not risk reinforcing bad habits.
Joined: 24 Jan 2005 Posts: 6985 Location: Castle Rock, CO
Posted: Fri Apr 20, 2012 10:54 pm Post subject:
Harry Talk-o wrote:
Parker continues, "some skiers use double pole plants for security in that unstable transition between turns. For some quick-footed skiers these pole plants work-- especially when making tight turns in big steep bumps.
vdrifter11 wrote:
I do not suggest that ANYONE DPP as some norm.. I very seldom dpp myself, but to say it's not @ least a good trick or tool to have available, or to suggest it can never REALLY be appropriate is just beyond belief.
Ah but Parker continues and this explains 'the argument'...
"But for others this habit squares the body on the skis so that quick turning requires propulsion off the two plated poles-- a difficult feat in soft snow. That's why we practice single pole plants."
Change 'practice' to 'teach,' this is why we teach single pole plants, and that doubles should be avoided as Parker also writes (and you also left out) "double poling or planting the uphill pole only reinforces bad habits."
Carl, I've been a ttips member since the sping of 2006, signing up while still in school. In recent years I have been teaching telemark and alpine style skiing and I feel that I have more to contribute than simply being an 'antidote' to anyone, but thanks anyway for your own important contribution to this discussion.
Joined: 24 Jan 2005 Posts: 6985 Location: Castle Rock, CO
Posted: Fri Apr 20, 2012 11:11 pm Post subject:
Harry Talk-o wrote:
Ah but Parker continues and this explains 'the argument'...
"But for others this habit squares the body on the skis so that quick turning requires propulsion off the two plated poles-- a difficult feat in soft snow. That's why we practice single pole plants."
Change 'practice' to 'teach,' this is why we teach single pole plants, and that doubles should be avoided as Parker also writes (and you also left out) "double poling or planting the uphill pole only reinforces bad habits."
The operative words in your post are for others. That is what Ron is saying it might work for some but not all people in all situations.
I can't think of a situation that I would teach or encourage DPP but I like to think I have enough teaching experience and at a high enough level to never say absolutes and to have an open mind to tactics other people might use.
The operative words in your post are for others. That is what Ron is saying it might work for some but not all people in all situations.
Yes, but as teachers our focus must be on techniques that work for everyone, this is a big reason why the dpp has fallen from favor in telemark skiing. And also for the reason I mentioned earlier, that we have been higly focused on turning students away from the old 'rowing down the hill' style so common in the old days and illustrated quite well in the OGs of the Wasatch video on this site.
I have no problem with Ron's attempts to point out that the dpp can be a useful tool, but he goes a lot further, with force and bluster, and he argued the supposed merits of dpp in two recent beginner threads, no doubt confusing novices and sending those threads on a downward spiral.
Carl, I've been a ttips member since the sping of 2006, signing up while still in school. In recent years I have been teaching telemark and alpine style skiing and I feel that I have more to contribute than simply being an 'antidote' to anyone, but thanks anyway for your own important contribution to this discussion.
so you are another dickhead who thinks you are contributing more than the mean. Congrats - meta babble from "constructive" people is what makes threads like this awesome
Joined: 24 Jan 2005 Posts: 6985 Location: Castle Rock, CO
Posted: Sat Apr 21, 2012 2:24 am Post subject:
Harry Talk-o wrote:
James wrote:
The operative words in your post are for others. That is what Ron is saying it might work for some but not all people in all situations.
Yes, but as teachers our focus must be on techniques that work for everyone, this is a big reason why the dpp has fallen from favor in telemark skiing. And also for the reason I mentioned earlier, that we have been higly focused on turning students away from the old 'rowing down the hill' style so common in the old days and illustrated quite well in the OGs of the Wasatch video on this site.
I have no problem with Ron's attempts to point out that the dpp can be a useful tool, but he goes a lot further, with force and bluster, and he argued the supposed merits of dpp in two recent beginner threads, no doubt confusing novices and sending those threads on a downward spiral.
I generally agree with both of you in this post but it appears neither can let it go. I would also add I would like to honor the recent change in attitude I have seen and hope it continues.
I don't want to nit pick or miss interpret what you said but I have little interest in teaching " techniques that work for everyone" My lessons are usually very small or private and I want to focus designing a lesson plan that focuses on techniques that work for my guests.
Last edited by James on Sat Apr 21, 2012 2:31 am; edited 1 time in total
"She's just another forum parrot... she says what she thinks others will love hearing and what "authorities" have told her..Pathetic!
vdrifter11 wrote:
And that fkin article by the esteemed alpine expert...
So you are saying that your authorities carry more weight than whatever authorities to whom you think Joni has been listening?
Oh-kay.
"psia psia psia" but it turns out psia says y'all are full of shit! how hard is that to get? _________________ Speak and remove all doubt..
No one cares that you CAN'T tele!
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I love the assholes defending the other assholes here. keep it up harry (created to be an antidote), cyrus the champ, and x-man the chump