Joined: 06 Dec 2004 Posts: 2274 Location: Washoe Valley, Nevada
Posted: Wed Feb 22, 2012 4:32 pm Post subject:
Doug G wrote:
Yeah, those 180s sound short for you ~200 pounders.
Are they wide enough for deep mank, etc? Or better to have Charger BC?
How fast are they for kick and glide?
Yeah maybe a little short but not a game changer for me because they will never see resort snow and have more aggressive gear for when I need it. For me they are surely wide enough to ski deep snow and soft heavy snow as well. Not sure what deep mank is but the tours I have had mine on has been a big variety of conditions and the skis did great. I got into a situation last time out where there is a short steep gulley with a 15 turn approach in shin deep sugar snow. The gulley itself was pretty tight and was a mess with lots of blowdown and ruts covered by a couple of inches of fresh. Kinda a "OH Shit" moment as I dropped in and no real way out except down. So, I got into a short radius pattern keeping my speed way down and started going over and around the features. The combo of rocker and flat camber made it a cake walk slipping and pivoting over the ruts, tree limbs and logs. I ended up at the bottom looking at my line and was pumped on how easy it was. My ski partners followed me and Lynn survived it with a frown and my other partner flailed all the way. Anyway, they are awesome in tight lumpy conditions. As far as kick and glide, did a little of that crossing across a dry lake bed. The skis as actually pretty slippery and glide out decently compared to maybe BC 125's and other waxless skis. Don't know as I don't really ski many places where that would be a priority for me. _________________ Just Say No To Groomed Snow
The combo of rocker and flat camber made it a cake walk slipping and pivoting over the ruts, tree limbs and logs. I ended up at the bottom looking at my line and was pumped on how easy it was.
Cool, sounds like the chargers, eating up tough conditions.
Quote:
The skis as actually pretty slippery and glide out decently compared to maybe BC 125's and other waxless skis.
Also cool. I was hoping they weren't too aggressive scales, like alpine x-terrain, what bbense mentions are good climbers but slow gliders.
Joined: 06 Dec 2004 Posts: 2274 Location: Washoe Valley, Nevada
Posted: Thu Feb 23, 2012 4:16 pm Post subject:
Doug G wrote:
Quote:
The combo of rocker and flat camber made it a cake walk slipping and pivoting over the ruts, tree limbs and logs. I ended up at the bottom looking at my line and was pumped on how easy it was.
Cool, sounds like the chargers, eating up tough conditions.
Quote:
The skis as actually pretty slippery and glide out decently compared to maybe BC 125's and other waxless skis.
Also cool. I was hoping they weren't too aggressive scales, like alpine x-terrain, what bbense mentions are good climbers but slow gliders.
The pattern is semi aggressive however it has a big footprint. I compared it to a 189 boundless and the pattern is obviously wider but also much longer as well. That is the reason why the bite is good. The bottom is nicely finished, very smooth and slippery. I think that is the reason why it glides pretty well. However, if cruising around on the flats and meadows with skating is a big priority, then this ski is not what you want. It will slog a little better than skins but that is it. Probably similar to other waxless skis. _________________ Just Say No To Groomed Snow
Joined: 22 Dec 2005 Posts: 2179 Location: P-town, CA
Posted: Thu Mar 01, 2012 3:55 am Post subject:
After many more days on the BC's I've had a few more thoughts on their performance.
I was hesitant to comment on it before because (scales-only) climbing capabilities are so condition dependent that I wanted to use them in a variety of snows before passing along an opinion. I have used many scaled skis in the past and I am starting to think that these are the best climbers I've used to date. You definitely still want to have skins for the steeps but the large scale patch has better than average bite. The downside to that is the drag it creates when going downhill; compromises, compromises. If anything I wish that the scale patch was shorter in order to improve the glide, but I might not feel that way if I did not have skins for mine.
Although the drag can be a pain at the resort, it factors into things much less frequently in a backcountry setting. I am most certainly enjoying having scales this year on my primary skis for earning turns.
Joined: 06 Dec 2004 Posts: 2274 Location: Washoe Valley, Nevada
Posted: Thu Mar 01, 2012 5:10 pm Post subject:
I think once you factor in the running surface and the fact that these skis have little to no camber underfoot. The pattern coverage is pretty much "wall to wall" on the contact area. Probably not a big issue on typical soft BC type snow, even more firmish BC type snow as far as glide goes but resort groomers and flat resort runouts back to the lifts it would be way slow. So is that important? IMO, yes because if it is crowded being slower than everybody else may make you a target to get hit. Probably depends on the resort too and the amount of runout and low angle runs. Personally I am glad there is a big pattern footprint as it makes for a great climb without skinning and it glides well enough and turny to be fun on low angle slopes. The ski most certainly has the chops to ski steep deep snow and any terrain you would find around Tahoe, providing you have the right bindings and boots to complete the package. _________________ Just Say No To Groomed Snow
Got my 180 BC's last week. Definitly slow on the flat outruns at SugarBowl, but thats to be expexted. Not a resort ski for me unless it is 4"+.
Got that today (2-3' in places). This is my widest and first tip rockered ski. Boy was it fun! The visibility was often nil but I felt comfortable letting them float their way down, a little backseat cruising.
Good glide, better than my Rossi Bc125's, and they track better.
The Rossi's seemed to wander more and the big tip seems to catch crud more.
Last week with late afternoon sun and mixed shadows, I climbed Castle Peak ridge without skins. I was surprised at the grip. On the icy return trip they handled the crud and variable crust well. I didn't have to be right on them to get through rough rutted spots.
Just sold the Rossi's.
Joined: 08 Dec 2004 Posts: 7703 Location: Berkeley, CA /Tahoe
Posted: Sat Mar 03, 2012 3:16 pm Post subject:
B wrote:
After many more days on the BC's I've had a few more thoughts on their performance.
I was hesitant to comment on it before because (scales-only) climbing capabilities are so condition dependent that I wanted to use them in a variety of snows before passing along an opinion. I have used many scaled skis in the past and I am starting to think that these are the best climbers I've used to date.
I was quite impressed with how well they climbed in the cold dry snow Friday AM. I was able to get pretty far up Mt Judah sidecountry in the hour before the lifts opened. They have a definite steepness limit, but I think in the right conditions (i.e. spring corn) with a moderate ski track, you could keep the skins in the pack most of the day.
About the only ski that comes close is the Alpina X-terrain and those get bogged down pretty quickly in deep snow.
Joined: 06 Dec 2004 Posts: 2274 Location: Washoe Valley, Nevada
Posted: Sun Mar 04, 2012 1:57 am Post subject:
bbense wrote:
B wrote:
After many more days on the BC's I've had a few more thoughts on their performance.
I was hesitant to comment on it before because (scales-only) climbing capabilities are so condition dependent that I wanted to use them in a variety of snows before passing along an opinion. I have used many scaled skis in the past and I am starting to think that these are the best climbers I've used to date.
I was quite impressed with how well they climbed in the cold dry snow Friday AM. I was able to get pretty far up Mt Judah sidecountry in the hour before the lifts opened. They have a definite steepness limit, but I think in the right conditions (i.e. spring corn) with a moderate ski track, you could keep the skins in the pack most of the day.
About the only ski that comes close is the Alpina X-terrain and those get bogged down pretty quickly in deep snow.
- Booker C. Bense
So, what did you think of the downhill performance? looks like a had a pretty good variety of snow to test on. _________________ Just Say No To Groomed Snow
Joined: 08 Dec 2004 Posts: 7703 Location: Berkeley, CA /Tahoe
Posted: Sun Mar 04, 2012 2:37 am Post subject:
Quadzilla wrote:
So, what did you think of the downhill performance? looks like a had a pretty good variety of snow to test on.
WHEEEEEEE!!!!!!!!!!!!
A very fun ski, light and easy and pretty stable for it's weight. If you want to go mach 10 and huck, this ain't your ski, but I could easily see this being someone's only BC ski and maybe their powder day ski. In really chunky snow, I had to parallel to keep them under control. In a telemark turn the back ski got pushed around too much for my skills in chunky conditions. Switching to parallel really extended the range of the ski in dealing with more difficult conditions.
I felt like you could ski pretty much everything from hard crust to the deep stuff with them. They definitely come alive in softer stuff, but I could do more than survival skiing on the harder snow.
I would buy 190's if they were available, but maybe I just need a few more days to get used them. I like that I can easily ski them with T2 Eco's and 7tm powers or Voile Switchbacks.
Joined: 30 Dec 2008 Posts: 24 Location: Madison, WI
Posted: Tue Mar 06, 2012 8:05 pm Post subject:
I got a pair of 180s early this season, and I'm still having a hard time with them. I've got 165 Rossi 125s mounted with 7tm Power Tours, and I LOVE LOVE LOVE those things. My Vectors have Fritschi Freerides on them, and I have a really tough time with them on hard snow. I feel like if you put any tip pressure on them like a standard alpine ski they don't turn at all. They're also way slower on the glide than my Rossi's. Of course, maybe i should wax them and then see how the glide is. In a little bit of soft snow or melty spring stuff they work a lot better, probably better than the Rossi's. I think they climb about the same as the Rossi's too. I used them both this weekend up in Upper Michigan in 3+ feet of freshies, and I simply prefer the Rossi's. I just posted the Vector BCs for sale just to see if anyone would bite, but maybe I just need to get used to them more? Anyone have any thoughts on the slow glide and slow turning?
Joined: 08 Dec 2004 Posts: 7703 Location: Berkeley, CA /Tahoe
Posted: Wed Mar 07, 2012 2:19 pm Post subject:
LouReed wrote:
My Vectors have Fritschi Freerides on them, and I have a really tough time with them on hard snow. I feel like if you put any tip pressure on them like a standard alpine ski they don't turn at all. They're also way slower on the glide than my Rossi's.
Parallel on hard snow, you really need a "soft boot, centered" ski technique to make them work. Much like skiing in mountaineering boots. You have to stay centered and use the sidecut to turn. Drive the tip and they just fold up. Imagine you're skiing on snow blades...
What boot are you using? I think there are plenty of AT boots these days that could simply overpower the ski. Also, I think there isn't much tolerance in where the boots are mounted on the ski, double check boot center on ski center mark.
Slow, well I'm not sure there's much that can be done other than grinding flat some of the waxless base. Waxing and brushing will help, but there's a tricky tradeoff.
You could just ski steeper stuff... These skis are going to be a complete blast in spring corn.
Joined: 30 Dec 2008 Posts: 24 Location: Madison, WI
Posted: Wed Mar 07, 2012 2:38 pm Post subject:
That's what I gathered, you really have to ground your heels to get them to turn. I've got Tecnica Bushwackers, so they are a pretty stiff boot (110 flex). Imagine I'm skiing on snow blades...I'd have to kick my own ass if that ever happened.
I mounted them pretty close to center, as close as I could get with a template at least. The nearest jig to me is in Denver, a solid 800 miles away. They may be 3 or 4mm off, but nothing major.
I think if I wax the crap out of the tips and tales, and get really picky about waxing just the leading edges of the scales I'll be alright. We'll see.
I'd love to ski steeper stuff, lets somehow convince mother nature to undergo an impromptu mountain building event here in WI and I'll be all set!
I don't have the BC's but agree that they work better with a centered skiing stance. I could see that if you poodle or if your tele stance is too long it would suck. Centered balance, tight stance. _________________ Drive the cuff
Joined: 08 Dec 2004 Posts: 7703 Location: Berkeley, CA /Tahoe
Posted: Wed Mar 07, 2012 11:40 pm Post subject:
LouReed wrote:
I think if I wax the crap out of the tips and tales, and get really picky about waxing just the leading edges of the scales I'll be alright. We'll see.!
Use a paste wax like Swix F4 on the scales. Doesn't last all that long, but will make a difference.
Joined: 06 Dec 2004 Posts: 2274 Location: Washoe Valley, Nevada
Posted: Thu Mar 08, 2012 1:43 pm Post subject:
LouReed wrote:
That's what I gathered, you really have to ground your heels to get them to turn. I've got Tecnica Bushwackers, so they are a pretty stiff boot (110 flex). Imagine I'm skiing on snow blades...I'd have to kick my own ass if that ever happened.
I mounted them pretty close to center, as close as I could get with a template at least. The nearest jig to me is in Denver, a solid 800 miles away. They may be 3 or 4mm off, but nothing major.
I think if I wax the crap out of the tips and tales, and get really picky about waxing just the leading edges of the scales I'll be alright. We'll see.
I'd love to ski steeper stuff, lets somehow convince mother nature to undergo an impromptu mountain building event here in WI and I'll be all set!
My call is that your combo of alpine stiff boots and Free rides arn't going to lend itself to any kind of decent low angle and flatish gliding and touring compared to the same/similar skis with a softer boot and a more tour friendly tour binding. So maybe waxing would help a little but those Voile bases are pretty slippery out of the box so the value of waxing the small area tips and tails may not be noticable. AS far as the downhill skiing IMO, with the short running length of the skis in conjunction with a pretty strong tip rise you can't drive the tips alpine style like you can on a trad alpine ski. you have to back off a little and stay centered over the middle on the ski and be less aggressive in turn initative. Anyway IMO, these are fineese skis and arn't going to respond favorable to being overpowered by a powerful alpine rig on it. So take the alpine rig off and save it for another setup and mount a more appropriate rig on it, yuou would most certainly see a favorable result. _________________ Just Say No To Groomed Snow
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