What you are so afraid of has very little base in reality.
On Tues I drove my 39 year old Triumph TR6 to work (with the top down it was sunny out ) There have been many many changes in the Automotive world since the car was made and the company went belly up, I can still get virtually every part for a car made almost 40 years ago, and it's easier to get those parts now than when the company was still in business.
As Dave Foreman once said, nobody wants to be wrong more than a dooms-dayer.
I like the TR6 analogy (you're gloating, btw). And, if boots like the current TX disappeared entirely tomorrow, my skiing life would be diminished but not over. But, I've seen enough products disappear off the market pretty much entirely that I don't think it's entirely unreasonable to expect it to happen should NTN continue to make in-roads. Some examples...
Flat cambered, waxable tele skis with tips in the 75mm to 99mm range have disappeared from the market or nearly so. There are a few waxable Asnes and Madshus available in the sub 80mm range but keep an eye on this forum and you'll see the occasional thread about people trying to grind off the bases of Outtabounds and old Karhu Guides.
The Voile CRB is gone. With the Telebry's status unknown, I don't think there is a reasonably light release option available for XCD anymore. I do hope the analogy to the TR6 holds up. The old Besser plate design long predates Voile and I would think that some small player might be able to revive the old CRB release plate. Or perhaps XCD demand will rebound enough to get Voile to reconsider.
Speaking of rebounds forcing a disappearance changing to reintroduction, norwegian welted 3 pin boots have returned to the US market. But, their stunning return underscores the fact that they had previously disappeared from our market entirely.
Karhu is gone. Dead and gone. Karhu literally defined the term XCD. Yes, some of their designs linger in the current Madshus line up, but this further underscores how few makers of XCD skis are left.
Please don't get me wrong. I don't think the XCD/Norpine skiing is in jeopardy of disappearing. As form of skiing it's here to stay I think and I think there are always going to be some manufactures who service this small niche.
All I'm saying is that I think it's reasonable to expect that NTN will chip away at the boundary between (heavy) tele and XCD and as a result, the XCD market will see some loss of product offerings as a result. _________________ Dave "Pinnah" Mann
========================
"It is impossible, or not easy, to do noble acts without the proper equipment."
Aristotle, <<Politics>>, 1323a-b, trans Jowett
And just to point out the obvious: there's no money for manufacturers to serve the dirtbag. It's really great what 75mm can do but in terms of business, it may not be the best thing. It all depends.
I guess it depends on your business model.
You know what company I admire? Velox. They make rim tape for bike wheels. Been making it the same way for like ever. I don't need or want "new and improved" rim tape when I build up a set of wheels. I want "well proven".
Sometimes new is improved and when that happens, that's wonderful. But to be dissatisfied with a proven technology just because it's old is just lousy engineering at its worst.
You know how many times I've read add copy decrying the short comings of derailler gearing? IMO, 75mm is sort of like that when it comes to the XCD niche. (NOTE: I'm definitely not talking it's relevance in the heavy tele market - they're different use cases and need to be considered differently). I'm not saying there should never be something to displace 75mm but I am saying that for XCD, lots of designs have tried and really haven't come close. Some of the reasons are economic and poltical to be sure. But a big bulk of the reasons are purely technical. For all of its age, the design handles a broad range of trade-offs really well. Like basic derailler technology, it sets a very high bar for a displacing design to clear. _________________ Dave "Pinnah" Mann
========================
"It is impossible, or not easy, to do noble acts without the proper equipment."
Aristotle, <<Politics>>, 1323a-b, trans Jowett
Joined: 06 Dec 2004 Posts: 11175 Location: People's Republic of A**holia
Posted: Thu Mar 01, 2012 7:19 pm Post subject:
trackhead wrote:
Telemark killed tele.
indeed. _________________ "anecdotes are fine assbaggery is not"
"But of course to Telemark is just one function of ski gear, but to have fun is the other. If I so much want to make Parallel turns all day long, I shall do this as well"
Joined: 02 Mar 2007 Posts: 1922 Location: Nova Scotia
Posted: Thu Mar 01, 2012 7:34 pm Post subject:
Pinnah wrote:
You know what company I admire? Velox. They make rim tape for bike wheels. Been making it the same way for like ever. I don't need or want "new and improved" rim tape when I build up a set of wheels. I want "well proven".
Most modern system wheels don't use rim tape. Their inner surface is smooth and the move to tubeless is only speeding that change.
And yes VELOX rim tape is nice, I have used it a lot, but it is the past. _________________ Larry
----------------------------------------------------
NTN is all about Dynamic Performance™
Came for the stoke, stayed for the popcorn.
Tele boot fitting - http://www.nstelemark.com/NSTelemark/Telemark_Boot_Fitting.html
Nice turns, there is article on earnyourturns about lite tele from a few days ago http://www.earnyourturns.com/9240/sb-notes-on-tele-lite/
Of course it's about skill, but it's nice to see, that's it's possible.
For me, next XCD will be Glittertinds + SNS BC, but still dont know if waxable or waxless.
Gunks Ray wrote:
Garmont has already produced a 2 buckle boot for both NTN...
You mean Kenai? I have never seen a link for that boot, does it really exists? From what I read here, if would something like that exists, people would be buying a lot.
Joined: 15 Jun 2009 Posts: 165 Location: NEK -> BZN -> JH
Posted: Thu Mar 01, 2012 7:53 pm Post subject:
My Two Pennies:
NTN Highlights.
I volunteer as a ski patroller and I am a big fan of the brakes and the ease of stepping in and out. True, not alpine easy, but I get out without bending over, and if I am really being lazy I will step on the lever with my ski so no bending over to get in.
I also thanks to the brakes have not had a single runaway ski this season... so far.
I volunteer on Search and Rescue and again the ease of getting in and out of the bindings has been great. Most of our winter work is with ski boots on, and as minimal as it is the absence of the duckbill is just a bit less cumbersome. Boot packing, snowmobiling, riding in the helicopter, crampons, sharing gear is all just a little easier.
I can still ski freeheel!!!!
Middle of the road:
The performance is great, but not that much different of an experience from skiing the 22 Designs bindings. Sure I was forced to make sure the rear foot was better weighted. And I notice during beer league racing that the uphill ski edge tracks better.
I also tour a fair amount, and I find the weight negligible compared to the Axl. And the limited range of motion is not an incredible hinderance. Side stepping is much easier. I am still out there and I am still enjoying it.
NTN Low lights:
Swapping bindings between skis is overrated. It takes time when friends are waiting on you. It is hard on the brakes. I have chipped the very front piece of plastic when removing the binding from skis.
The packing snow underfoot is giving me something to think about and work on. The packing tape installed by the previous owner is now missing from holes, so I am left pondering my next step; more tape, teflon spray, milk jug plastic.
Scarpa's instep strap on the TX-Pro is lame, it has been maxed out since day one.
So in conclusion, I am on for a few more seasons, probably until my knees will not let me Telemark anymore. I am looking forward to trying the Freedom next year. If I do go dyna-fiddle, I will get a block and cable form TTS.
I look forward to change, I like trying new gear. If I did not like change and trying different things I may have never telemarked in the first place.
Pinnah - NNN-BC is much more likely to kill XCD than NTN.
5 or 10 years ago, I would have agreed that NNN-BC was a serious threat to 75mm. But, the market has decided against it, partly, I think pushed by wider "XCD" skis like the Outtabounds and Guides, which favor soft and low cut plastic boots like the Excursions. Could there be an NNN-BC version of the Excursion? Anything is possible but I suppose memories of the old Alpinas that regularly broke toe bars would come stumbling out again. I'm not saying a system binding couldn't be beefed up enough but there would need to be more innovation and tinkering on that platform than the licensing fees to Rotte (or Salomon) would (or did?) allow. Have the patents on either of those designs gone by the board? If so maybe 75mm could get displaced. I agree that the basics of the NNN/SNS-BC type approach makes some sense, but we just don't see it.
And again, I'm not predicting that NTN will "kill" 75mm. Just reduce some of the choice on the heavy end of the XCD spectrum. I can't see that as being too controversial.
NStelemark, you predicting that tubeless rims will entirely obsolete and displace tubed tires? _________________ Dave "Pinnah" Mann
========================
"It is impossible, or not easy, to do noble acts without the proper equipment."
Aristotle, <<Politics>>, 1323a-b, trans Jowett
Joined: 02 Mar 2007 Posts: 1922 Location: Nova Scotia
Posted: Thu Mar 01, 2012 7:58 pm Post subject:
oodoow wrote:
Gunks Ray wrote:
Garmont has already produced a 2 buckle boot for both NTN...
You mean Kenai? I have never seen a link for that boot, does it really exists? From what I read here, if would something like that exists, people would be buying a lot.
I don't think it exits but it has been seen. My bet is next year.
Joined: 06 Dec 2004 Posts: 8527 Location: The Sun Mountain Town
Posted: Thu Mar 01, 2012 8:08 pm Post subject:
Pinnah wrote:
Grant wrote:
Pinnah - NNN-BC is much more likely to kill XCD than NTN.
5 or 10 years ago, I would have agreed that NNN-BC was a serious threat to 75mm. But, the market has decided against it, partly, I think pushed by wider "XCD" skis like the Outtabounds and Guides, which favor soft and low cut plastic boots like the Excursions. Could there be an NNN-BC version of the Excursion? Anything is possible but I suppose memories of the old Alpinas that regularly broke toe bars would come stumbling out again. I'm not saying a system binding couldn't be beefed up enough but there would need to be more innovation and tinkering on that platform than the licensing fees to Rotte (or Salomon) would (or did?) allow. Have the patents on either of those designs gone by the board? If so maybe 75mm could get displaced. I agree that the basics of the NNN/SNS-BC type approach makes some sense, but we just don't see it.
And again, I'm not predicting that NTN will "kill" 75mm. Just reduce some of the choice on the heavy end of the XCD spectrum. I can't see that as being too controversial.
Take a look at the Fischer website. The S-Bound skis up to 88mm in he shovel have SNS-BC bindings on them. Fischer is promoting NNN-BC for those skis. What do you think shops are likely to sell?
When you mention Guides, you are well wider than how you have traditionally defined XCD (to you). Most folks are putting full blown cable/rod tele bindings on them, not just pins. They require plastic boots to turn. Essentially 'XCD' has been co-opted based on the ever widening 'heavy' tele ski. Many of the modern 'XCD' skis are wider than anything either of us were skiing 10 years ago. Back then you would have defined a ski of that width and weight a 'tele' ski, not 'XCD'. Maybe 'XCD' won't die, it will just be redefined. _________________ In seed time learn, in harvest teach, in winter enjoy. ~William Blake
Joined: 08 Jan 2005 Posts: 3138 Location: Wenatchee
Posted: Thu Mar 01, 2012 8:44 pm Post subject:
Pinnah wrote:
All I'm saying is that I think it's reasonable to expect that NTN will chip away at the boundary between (heavy) tele and XCD and as a result, the XCD market will see some loss of product offerings as a result.
You say it like it's a bad thing. Full featured and lighter NTN based bindings for XCD would be the cat's meow. Don't be such a Luddite.
NNN and SNS are apparently a little light for turning, and NTN still a little ponderous for touring. I could probably be OK with the Burnt NTN DOG thing, basically like switchbacks, for touring and turning. Though, 3-pin still wins out for XCD. Nice compromise flex for touring and turning both interspersed, trails etc.
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) There have been many many changes in the Automotive world since the car was made and the company went belly up, I can still get virtually every part for a car made almost 40 years ago, and it's easier to get those parts now than when the company was still in business.
