Joined: 07 Jan 2005 Posts: 15772 Location: Ponderosa
Posted: Wed Feb 29, 2012 2:41 pm Post subject:
aglandau wrote:
I'm not stoking any fire Baahb, just putting things in perspective.
Debating the legitimacy of violence following the desecration of a religious symbol - that is myopia.
Refusing to look beyond the desecration to understand the anger in the streets - that is autism.
the first step in progress towards tolerance is understanding the roots of intolerance.
no doubt this applies to everyone in Afghanistan, and no doubt there is much intolerance among US troops, but ALL forms of intolerance need to be criticized and NONE of them is justifiable based on cause and effect.
when one excuses intolerance based on history or sociology, one condemns perpetuation of the cycle of intolerance.
that is the basic lesson from King and Ghandi. _________________ Other vegetables have a hard time competing with potatoes.
Joined: 07 Dec 2004 Posts: 5934 Location: Flying over the Earth poisoning you with chemtrails
Posted: Wed Feb 29, 2012 3:18 pm Post subject:
Man Baaahb do you miss the magnitude of the situation. 2,100 million people persuaded to be tolerant of infidels that have invaded their countries, are haphazardly killing their men women and children, destroying their economies, and ignoring their laws and beliefs, all totally against the teaching of their prophet and god's word.
Let me know how that works out for ya!
Ghandi?, King?, talk about apples and oranges. _________________ Il n'y a que moi qui a toujours raison.
BF's French lady.
Joined: 07 Jan 2005 Posts: 15772 Location: Ponderosa
Posted: Wed Feb 29, 2012 3:52 pm Post subject:
chemman wrote:
Man Baaahb do you miss the magnitude of the situation. 2,100 million people persuaded to be tolerant of infidels that have invaded their countries, are haphazardly killing their men women and children, destroying their economies, and ignoring their laws and beliefs, all totally against the teaching of their prophet and god's word.
Let me know how that works out for ya!
Ghandi?, King?, talk about apples and oranges.
I have no idea what point you are making. There is so much room for miscommunication when one discusses moral issues when cultures clash that you really need to take the time to spell it out in small steps and assume no level of common ground starting point for the point you are trying to make. _________________ Other vegetables have a hard time competing with potatoes.
Joined: 07 Dec 2004 Posts: 5934 Location: Flying over the Earth poisoning you with chemtrails
Posted: Wed Feb 29, 2012 4:24 pm Post subject:
Baaahb wrote:
chemman wrote:
Man Baaahb do you miss the magnitude of the situation. 2,100 million people persuaded to be tolerant of infidels that have invaded their countries, are haphazardly killing their men women and children, destroying their economies, and ignoring their laws and beliefs, all totally against the teaching of their prophet and god's word.
Let me know how that works out for ya!
Ghandi?, King?, talk about apples and oranges.
I have no idea what point you are making. There is so much room for miscommunication when one discusses moral issues when cultures clash that you really need to take the time to spell it out in small steps and assume no level of common ground starting point for the point you are trying to make.
Gandhi and King did not have to discard their teachings in order to form moral common ground with their followers. Likewise that common moral ground allows the bridge between us and those represented by Gandhi and King.
OTH there are divisions between us and those that may represent the followers of Islam. The teachings of Islam are clear when it comes to punishment for violations of Islamic law. To us there is a violation of universal morality and those results of Islamic law. We somehow want to think our universal morality should trump Islamic law. If you are a follower of Islam the opposite is true. We will never see eye to eye when it comes to morality and Islamic law.
The above being only one side of the at least double edged sword. The other would be how to find the leader similar to King or Gandhi of Islam. The only person that comes to mind would be Mohammed and since he has already spoken we cannot negotiate with him. King and Gandhi were a much different situation. We can only find common ground with Mohammed and there are instances where there will be no common approach to a situation or application of morality and Islamic law. Because of this diametrically opposed point of view there exists a huge divide. It opposes our moral views and it opposes Islam’s religious beliefs.
Explain again how this is similar to Gandhi and King's situation? _________________ Il n'y a que moi qui a toujours raison.
BF's French lady.
Joined: 07 Jan 2005 Posts: 15772 Location: Ponderosa
Posted: Wed Feb 29, 2012 5:37 pm Post subject:
chemman wrote:
Explain again how this is similar to Gandhi and King's situation?
Both taught that one must not use violence to oppose what one perceives as an evil and/or immoral regime.
chemman wrote:
OTH there are divisions between us and those that may represent the followers of Islam. The teachings of Islam are clear when it comes to punishment for violations of Islamic law. To us there is a violation of universal morality and those results of Islamic law. We somehow want to think our universal morality should trump Islamic law. If you are a follower of Islam the opposite is true. We will never see eye to eye when it comes to morality and Islamic law.
But in the past 500 years, Christianity has struggled to do precisely that: subordinate its religious doctrines to a universal morality, in particular religious tolerance. Certainly there is more progress to be made, but Christianity used to be just as "backward" and intolerant as Afghani muslim fundamentalism, and it has come a long way since then.
THAT is the key gulf that separates US moderates from Islam. Islam needs to suck it up like Christianity has (largely) done. Reasonable people don't expect you common Afghani goat herder to immediately jump on the bandwagon, but do expect a leadership position and acknowledgement of how the religion needs to evolve from islamic leaders and muslims living in more advanced (e.g. tolerant) cultures. _________________ Other vegetables have a hard time competing with potatoes.
I'm not stoking any fire Baahb, just putting things in perspective.
Debating the legitimacy of violence following the desecration of a religious symbol - that is myopia.
Refusing to look beyond the desecration to understand the anger in the streets - that is autism.
the first step in progress towards tolerance is understanding the roots of intolerance.
no doubt this applies to everyone in Afghanistan, and no doubt there is much intolerance among US troops, but ALL forms of intolerance need to be criticized and NONE of them is justifiable based on cause and effect.
when one excuses intolerance based on history or sociology, one condemns perpetuation of the cycle of intolerance.
that is the basic lesson from King and Ghandi.
Ok, I think I get what you're saying. Afghans should learn to be more tolerant of night raids and torture in Bagram. And kill teams. They should really grow to accept kill teams the way Ghandi and King would.
Joined: 07 Jan 2005 Posts: 15772 Location: Ponderosa
Posted: Wed Feb 29, 2012 6:07 pm Post subject:
aglandau wrote:
Baaahb wrote:
aglandau wrote:
I'm not stoking any fire Baahb, just putting things in perspective.
Debating the legitimacy of violence following the desecration of a religious symbol - that is myopia.
Refusing to look beyond the desecration to understand the anger in the streets - that is autism.
the first step in progress towards tolerance is understanding the roots of intolerance.
no doubt this applies to everyone in Afghanistan, and no doubt there is much intolerance among US troops, but ALL forms of intolerance need to be criticized and NONE of them is justifiable based on cause and effect.
when one excuses intolerance based on history or sociology, one condemns perpetuation of the cycle of intolerance.
that is the basic lesson from King and Ghandi.
Ok, I think I get what you're saying. Afghans should learn to be more tolerant of night raids and torture in Bagram. And kill teams. They should really grow to accept kill teams the way Ghandi and King would.
My comments have nothing to do with night raids, torture or kill teams. My comments concern those who consider it reasonable to avenge the burning of Korans by death.
So, no, you don't get it. At all. Fail. _________________ Other vegetables have a hard time competing with potatoes.
hmmm..... to pigeon hole the'burning of the koran' without the 'backround' is a fail imo....
imagine if the 'heartland' of the U.S. experienced a foreign invader/'rescuer' who didn't 'respect' the christian religion and the foreign troop burned bibles, there would be no violent response? Really.....????
In comparing any two great civilizations one should not focus on one land or one decade or century, but rather glance over many centuries and over many lands. If we do that, then it becomes clear that whether one looks at the teachings of the two religions or the conduct of their followers there is no basis in fact in the claim that Christianity is more of a religion of love and peace than Islam. Christians have no doubt talked about love and peace more, but Muslims have practiced these values more.
As a final word, I would say that before preaching love and peace to other nations, Christians will do well to pay heed to the following well-attested words of Jesus:
Or, how can you say to your brother, "Friend, let me take the speck in your eye," when you yourself do not see the log in your own eye? You hypocrite, first take the log in your own eye, and then you will see clearly to take the speck out of your brother's eye (Luke 6:42 = Matt 7:4-5 = Thomas, saying 26)
To myself and other Muslims I would say that forever keep reflecting the meaning of the following words of God:
We have not sent you (O Muhammad) except as a mercy and love to all the nations (lit. all the worlds).
and no i don't hate America _________________
wow wrote:
Complexity adds confusion whether you are in charge of an avalanche center or headed out for the first tour.
Joined: 07 Jan 2005 Posts: 15772 Location: Ponderosa
Posted: Wed Feb 29, 2012 7:09 pm Post subject:
well, y'all seem to have lost your focus, as indeed is so often the case with ttips.
the question to which I responded was
chemman wrote:
I can't believe conservatives think the people who were offended, so offended they will kill, need to apologize. Explain the logic.
That logic has been explained.
I don't need any explanation of why Afghani muslims might hate the US for its Christian exceptionalism.
But as King and Ghandi taught, two wrongs don't make a right.
No doubt, as some suggest, the US needs to do a better job of understanding and appreciating other cultures. And Christian arrogance has no justified place AT ALL.
And, no doubt, the US needs to admit its own faults before it can expect others to become more tolerant as well. Indeed, President Obama issued a rare US apology for the Koran burning.
Most importantly, chemman's stated position that morality is defined by society has no place in the global village. We must move towards a universal morality, whose first tenet is freedom of belief and second tenet is that it is wrong to use violence against those who have different beliefs...even if their beliefs mock, ridicule, or otherwise offend your own.
Then, we might have peace in the Middle East. Peace in Afghanistan might take a bit longer. _________________ Other vegetables have a hard time competing with potatoes.
well, y'all seem to have lost your focus, as indeed is so often the case with ttips.
Most importantly, chemman's stated position that morality is defined by society has no place in the global village.
oh the irony....... _________________
wow wrote:
Complexity adds confusion whether you are in charge of an avalanche center or headed out for the first tour.
Joined: 07 Jan 2005 Posts: 15772 Location: Ponderosa
Posted: Wed Feb 29, 2012 7:44 pm Post subject:
jw wrote:
Quote:
well, y'all seem to have lost your focus, as indeed is so often the case with ttips.
Most importantly, chemman's stated position that morality is defined by society has no place in the global village.
oh the irony.......
ditto! _________________ Other vegetables have a hard time competing with potatoes.
I'm not stoking any fire Baahb, just putting things in perspective.
Debating the legitimacy of violence following the desecration of a religious symbol - that is myopia.
Refusing to look beyond the desecration to understand the anger in the streets - that is autism.
the first step in progress towards tolerance is understanding the roots of intolerance.
no doubt this applies to everyone in Afghanistan, and no doubt there is much intolerance among US troops, but ALL forms of intolerance need to be criticized and NONE of them is justifiable based on cause and effect.
when one excuses intolerance based on history or sociology, one condemns perpetuation of the cycle of intolerance.
that is the basic lesson from King and Ghandi.
Ok, I think I get what you're saying. Afghans should learn to be more tolerant of night raids and torture in Bagram. And kill teams. They should really grow to accept kill teams the way Ghandi and King would.
My comments have nothing to do with night raids, torture or kill teams. My comments concern those who consider it reasonable to avenge the burning of Korans by death.
So, no, you don't get it. At all. Fail.
Baaahb it's kind of simplistic to think this is just about Korans.
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