Joined: 12 Dec 2004 Posts: 618 Location: Wasilla, Alaska
Posted: Tue Dec 21, 2004 10:03 pm Post subject:
Frank Baumann wrote:
"I reserve the right to hold back just a little so that we can have a small party, buy a round, and salute the magnificient efforts that both Mitch Weber and now Craig Dostie are making to stay the course and help spread the message of avalanche safety."
Not so fast there, Ava....I don't think this is winable-
Remember Bay Street? Courts in Canada are smart- they understand that when a guest pays for a backcountry guide service that there are inherent risks involved with this activity.
Furthermore, Dick Penniman, Peter Millar and yourself combined don't stand a chance against SME and the expert witnesses they will bring on.
And no matter what decisions were made that fateful day, none of you were there- and to armchair quarterback after the fact when none of you guide is...well...going to look frivilous.
With all do respect.
$.02, no charge. _________________ www.snowdynamics.com
"Terrain suitable for the conditions."
Joined: 06 Dec 2004 Posts: 136 Location: pacific northwet
Posted: Tue Dec 21, 2004 11:07 pm Post subject:
snowdynamicswrote:
Quote:
to armchair quarterback after the fact when none of you guide is...well...going to look frivilous
SD, with all due respect, this argument is BS. The argument that "only other guides can judge the actions of a guide" has to be one of the most infuriating recurring themes in this whole affair. Can you not see that this attitude gives the impression that guides are protecting their own at the expense of the truth?
Licensed professionals in virtually every field are judged every single day by juries of average citizens on the subject of whether they lived up to their professional standard of care. Experts in materials science and mathematics testify as expert witnesses when a structural engineer is sued for a building collapse, though they are not practicing engineers themselves. Air traffic controllers, aeronautic engineers and weather scientists testify when pilots are being investigated for airplane crashes, though they are not pilots.
In most fields, the only judging that one's professional peers have jurisdiction over is matters of professional ethics (which may or may not apply here, depending on one's opinion).
oh, and anyway, i assume that Ava gets paid to be an expert witness whether or not the plaintiff prevails, so the bay street affair shouldn't affect the beer fund.
edited to add last paragraph _________________ thanks for listening.
Posted: Wed Dec 22, 2004 1:12 am Post subject: Avablanche
My intention is not to slag Frank however people should realize that even though Frank claims to be an Avalanche Expert, he is not a member of the CAA nor is he a Professional Member.
Frank Baumann wrote:
"I reserve the right to hold back just a little so that we can have a small party, buy a round, and salute the magnificient efforts that both Mitch Weber and now Craig Dostie are making to stay the course and help spread the message of avalanche safety."
Not so fast there, Ava....I don't think this is winable-
Remember Bay Street? Courts in Canada are smart- they understand that when a guest pays for a backcountry guide service that there are inherent risks involved with this activity.
Furthermore, Dick Penniman, Peter Millar and yourself combined don't stand a chance against SME and the expert witnesses they will bring on.
I think you are quoting out of context. Ava merely said that if it went to court and if he was asked to be an expert witness, he would not take the money for himself. He did not argue the merits of a lwasuit, he did not state that he hoped there was a lawsuit, he was responding to a comment that implied he was in this for personal gain.
Joined: 21 Dec 2004 Posts: 75 Location: The slopes of Mount Analogue, of course!
Posted: Wed Dec 22, 2004 4:24 am Post subject: Re: Durrand Stuff
Ron E wrote:
I was at the recent Canadian Avalanche Association seminar in Vancouver and listened to an excellent presentation by Bruce Tremper of the Utah Avalanche Centre. One of the points he stressed was to NEVER EVER travel above your partner as doing so amounts to murder (Tremper's words). This is and always has been one of the cardinal rules of backcountry skiing.
Even though it is rather harsh, it appears that I'm not the only one to use the M word in this context ... although I do get double word score because I referenced it to Mickeedees too! (Yes, I know that's in bad taste ).
And Tremper, in his excellent book, does a darn good job of disscussing the need for humility and the dangers of overconfidence in the B.C. This is not new stuff. A "must read" and re-read.
Chris B - very good of you to clarify that issue.
And Ball of Foot - Great job discussing the "qualifications" issue, which reminds me all too much of the "in-crowd" vs "out-crowd" thing we had in High School... pretty sophomoric issue in my mind.
Joined: 06 Dec 2004 Posts: 268 Location: Beautiful British Columbia
Posted: Wed Dec 22, 2004 2:42 pm Post subject: Re: Avablanche
Cambria wrote:
My intention is not to slag Frank however people should realize that even though Frank claims to be an Avalanche Expert, he is not a member of the CAA nor is he a Professional Member.
Will, first, I don't think I have ever claimed to be an "avalanche expert"; it is up to others to decide whether they want to use my expertise in this field; many have.
Second, the CAA is a voluntary association, like a guild; it is not a true professional body, accountable to a legislated standard, and with principals similar to most professional bodies. I have always shied away from such organizations in order to retain my neutrality.
I am a registered qualified professional engineer in British Columbia, accountable to a legislated standard, which is far more important to me than being a member of the CAA. In this regard, there have been some interesting disputes in the past, because any engineering work in the Province must, by law, be done by registered qualified professionals, and some of the avalanche work, such as production of an avalanche atlas or terrain analysis , clearly comes under the jurisdiction of the Engineering Act, and therefore should not be done by anyone that is not a registered qualified professional (a P.Eng. or P.Geo., which requires at least four years of University training in a recognized program, and four years of experience working under a professional engineer or geoscientist). Some avalanche workers resolve this by getting a P.Eng. or P.Geo. to sign and seal their work, but others do not.
Finally, despite having done a lot of professional assignments on avalanche problems for many years, technically, I could never become a full professional member of the CAA under the current rules. The current bylaws require taking about two weeks of course work, and then working for at least a year as an apprentice under a professional member; something which would not be practical for someone like myself. Personally, I believe the CAA should change their bylaws so that more people involved in professional work related to avalanches can become members; I think this would greatly strengthen the organization. Technically, under the current bylaws, if people like Peter Schaerer, P.Eng. or Dr. David McClung, P.Eng/P.Geo. applied for membership today, they wouldn't qualify. _________________ There are no easy solutions, only intelligent choices
The minute those dead skiers laid down their money for guide services and turned off their own brains, that was when THE mistake was made that led to their respective deaths.
That's the part that scared me most about this. Before this tragic event I would have most likely done the same.
I don't imagine many of us paying to ski with this guide, stepping up and saying 'hey wait a minute this doesn't seem like a good idea.'
My desire to put myself in such a situation is now gone.
Further, you are all missing the important point.
The minute those dead skiers laid down their money for guide services and turned off their own brains, that was when THE mistake was made that led to their respective deaths.
To be in a dangerous situation and turn your fate over to another human being for recreation/entertainment/fun is pure stupid folly.
<<db>> are you saying that if you were on this trip this accident would have been avoided?
I think you are missing the point. If you claim to know so much why do you use a guide? It's good to ask the guide questions about route choice and snowpack conditions, etc, but only if you know to ask.
Not everyone knows the dangers in the backcountry and depend on quality guides with local experience. It is up to the clients to determine the acceptable risk for the trip and the guide to keep the trip within those bounds. A guide does not guarantee a safe trip only a safety conscious trip as BC skiing is dangerous and the client must accept that.
My post was not to slag Frank and I stand by that. The following is copied right from the CAA's webpage.
The Canadian Avalanche Association is dedicated to bringing the avalanche community together to develop knowledge and understanding of avalanches, facilitate communication, promote professionalism, and provide quality avalanche education.
The CAA is a non profit society that will:
· Promote professionalism in Canadian avalanche safety programs
· Enhance and promote public avalanche safety programs through partnerships with the private
and public sectors
· Facilitate information and technology transfer
· Develop, maintain and deliver avalanche education programs
· Promote avalanche research and development
· Ensure value of membership and encourage participation
Frank is also entitled to becoming an "Affiliate Member" if he does not meet the criteria for a Professional Membership.
Finally people who work at the CAA are not volunteers as they are paid employees.
I will not question your motives on neutrality however by joining the CAA, you can work with this group to promote backcountry safety.
db...guides do much more than avoid avy terrain. I have guided many high skilled skiers and I;m sure some that are way better that you ski and avywise. They were happy, not ashamed, to hire a ski guide, They typically don't have weeks to figure out an area, don't want to waste time maybe finding good snow. Many times I have put clients on runs that I struggled to ski down. There is nothing wrong with hiring a guide. I rarely look at BC skiing as "dangerous". It need not be. It should be a blast.
and....desspite having a degree in Fish Biology, I have hired a fishing guide.
Guides know routes to the best goods. When things are bad everywhere, a guide can find you that hidden stash of powder high on some north face cause well, he's local and skiis the stuff all the time. Besides they can bust a trail that saves tons of time for the client.
As far as heliguiding.....now that is full-on dangerous here IMO.
It is inherently dangerous, more so that most folks assume in regards to avy hazards, and the only way to make it safer is toi get rid of the heli and make the guides actually access the route on skiis, not from a cockpit of a chopper. There is one local heliguide who works here all season on skiis for DOT, and he is the only one I would trust cause he lives and skiis here FT. Every other heliguide lives elsewhere, except here for 8 weeks. That is a problem considering the emphasis on expereince and local knowledge.
I'm sure anyone who has hired me knows full well that I encourage and welcome their input in regards to avalanche hazards. Most my clients are solid BC skirs and we work well "together", as a team. I don't like diggin pits on a guided trip, but if they have questions, I dig so I can show them what I'm thinking. This is good.
Ava Blanche is an highly expereinced engineer. I respect that and see no reason to change cause he doesn't belong to the "club". CAA is great and all that. But some folks work best outside the mainstream.
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