Joined: 07 Dec 2004 Posts: 5819 Location: Flying over the Earth poisoning you with chemtrails
Posted: Mon Feb 27, 2012 12:35 am Post subject:
The problem Baaahb is that the exact narrow minded approach that got us into the extremely expensive(lives and money) situation in the middle east is exactly where you are coming from. You some how think that your oh so refined moral approach for existence is "good" for everyone and is the proper choice for all. I am saying that you are wrong. Just because you find killing someone for blasphemy wrong and barbaric does not make you right. They have had the same approach to the same situations for hundreds of years. Using your definitions for right and wrong do not apply. Just because you say you have the right way to approach a situation will never convince a person that what they are doing is wrong. What you believe and what they believe are different. What they believe came from the lips of their prophet and ultimately their god, what you say and do will never hold any significance what so ever.
If you choose to get these people to do what you think is right you will need to manipulate them into believing it is the will of god and/or in their best interest.
There is tons of nuances of other cultures that Americans have absolutely no clue about. Even the well traveled American can exhibit the same attitude as you. Why on earth do they do that, eat that, act like that. The list is endless.
Just because you think it is immoral and wrong does not make it wrong to anyone but you. _________________ Il n'y a que moi qui a toujours raison.
BF's French lady.
Joined: 07 Jan 2005 Posts: 15743 Location: Ponderosa
Posted: Mon Feb 27, 2012 1:23 am Post subject:
Like I said, you apparently do not believe that there may be a universal morality, a golden rule, a categorical imperative.
My point has absolutely nothing to do with any of the following issues, and your failure to see that is your myopia:
- what the US should do in Afghanistan as a strategic matter
- how one can most expeditiously bring Afghanistan into the modern era, either physically or spiritually
- the culpability of those who burned the korans
- islam as opposed to christianity or judaism
- issues of American exceptionalism
The fact that the majority of a society - or even the unanimous opinion of a society - may condone an action or a response is not determinative under a universal morality.
Isn't that one of the lessons from Nazi Germany? You seem to be unable to take those principles of a universal morality and apply them to a fundamentalist society like Afghanistan, apparently because you are so outraged by American exceptionalism.
Like the jews and arabs fighting for centuries in the middle east and each believing its own retribution is justified, you condemn the world to eternal strife over self-created and, indeed, imaginary reasons. I.e. "beliefs". _________________ Other vegetables have a hard time competing with potatoes.
Joined: 07 Jan 2005 Posts: 15743 Location: Ponderosa
Posted: Mon Feb 27, 2012 1:29 am Post subject:
chemman wrote:
Just because you find killing someone for blasphemy wrong and barbaric does not make you right.
Do you likewise believe:
Just because you believe human slavery is wrong, that does not make it wrong.
Just because you believe violent rape is wrong, that does not make it wrong?
This is not about whether "I" am right. It is whether one can say that certain actions are morally wrong. If you can say that slavery or rape or murder is morally wrong, then why cannot one say that the retributive killing of another for burning a book is morally wrong? _________________ Other vegetables have a hard time competing with potatoes.
Joined: 07 Dec 2004 Posts: 1685 Location: North Ogden, Ut or upstate NY
Posted: Mon Feb 27, 2012 1:42 am Post subject:
Baaahb wrote:
chemman wrote:
Just because you find killing someone for blasphemy wrong and barbaric does not make you right.
Do you likewise believe:
Just because you believe human slavery is wrong, that does not make it wrong.
Just because you believe violent rape is wrong, that does not make it wrong?
This is not about whether "I" am right. It is whether one can say that certain actions are morally wrong. If you can say that slavery or rape or murder is morally wrong, then why cannot one say that the retributive killing of another for burning a book is morally wrong?
He just hates America. _________________ You know it's a good day when you wake up in the morning.
Joined: 07 Dec 2004 Posts: 5819 Location: Flying over the Earth poisoning you with chemtrails
Posted: Mon Feb 27, 2012 1:47 am Post subject:
If you can't convince me to believe in your universal morality you will never ever convince an Islamic majority.
Until Americans, British, Israeli and the other elitists responsible for pushing "freedom and morality" to all ends of the earth understand the depth of the Islamic way of life, there will ALWAYS be conflict if the two exist in the same room. Muslims may look like normal people but they are not, they exist only to serve god, 1 purpose in life, pray 5 times a day, every day for their entire life. Nothing in the west compares, nothing. Maybe you can pop some priests or monks or nuns and such but totally different, they choose to follow god, a Muslim does not choose and it is universal, it is everyone.
If you think your point has nothing to do with your list you are missing the whole point Baaahb _________________ Il n'y a que moi qui a toujours raison.
BF's French lady.
Joined: 07 Dec 2004 Posts: 5819 Location: Flying over the Earth poisoning you with chemtrails
Posted: Mon Feb 27, 2012 2:05 am Post subject:
You make this whole universal morality thing sound like a law of physics, gravity, conservation of energy, preservation of morality... I don't think so.
Morality is determined by society, either directly or indirectly.
You can say : in general it is immoral to kill Well then you must set forth some exceptions For all of your universal morality laws there will always be exceptions. In our society it is acceptable for man/man woman/woman to be together, in some places they can even be "Married" Over history it was fine for even more radical examples all determined moral by the current society of the time. Currently in some countries or societies homosexuality is punishable by death.
So Baahb is it your idea that we should come up with some universal morality laws that should be forced on all world societies?
Baaahb wrote:
chemman wrote:
Just because you find killing someone for blasphemy wrong and barbaric does not make you right.
Do you likewise believe:
Just because you believe human slavery is wrong, that does not make it wrong.
Just because you believe violent rape is wrong, that does not make it wrong?
This is not about whether "I" am right. It is whether one can say that certain actions are morally wrong. If you can say that slavery or rape or murder is morally wrong, then why cannot one say that the retributive killing of another for burning a book is morally wrong?
_________________ Il n'y a que moi qui a toujours raison.
BF's French lady.
Joined: 07 Dec 2004 Posts: 1685 Location: North Ogden, Ut or upstate NY
Posted: Mon Feb 27, 2012 2:38 am Post subject:
chemman wrote:
So Baahb is it your idea that we should come up with some universal morality laws that should be forced on all world societies?
Not saying they should be forced, but IMO, universally accepted ideas are : "We hold these truths to be self evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endosed by their Creator with certain inalienable Rights, that among these are Life, Liberty and the pursuit of Happiness . . . "
But you wouldn't know or care about them, because you hate America. _________________ You know it's a good day when you wake up in the morning.
Joined: 07 Dec 2004 Posts: 5819 Location: Flying over the Earth poisoning you with chemtrails
Posted: Mon Feb 27, 2012 12:44 pm Post subject:
Jim wrote:
chemman wrote:
So Baahb is it your idea that we should come up with some universal morality laws that should be forced on all world societies?
Not saying they should be forced, but IMO, universally accepted ideas are : "We hold these truths to be self evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endosed by their Creator with certain inalienable Rights, that among these are Life, Liberty and the pursuit of Happiness . . . "
But you wouldn't know or care about them, because you hate America.
You are a damn idiot Jim. The illustrious patriots that wrote that document were being served and their fields were being worked and were beating and raping their SLAVES. Their slaves.
Where on earth is your reality, what world do you live in. Wake up Jim, there is more to this world than what is filtered through your rose colored sunglasses.
_________________ Il n'y a que moi qui a toujours raison.
BF's French lady.
Joined: 15 Dec 2004 Posts: 9481 Location: Blue Canadian Rockies
Posted: Mon Feb 27, 2012 12:55 pm Post subject:
Jim wrote:
chemman wrote:
So Baahb is it your idea that we should come up with some universal morality laws that should be forced on all world societies?
Not saying they should be forced, but IMO, universally accepted ideas are : "We hold these truths to be self evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endosed by their Creator with certain inalienable Rights, that among these are Life, Liberty and the pursuit of Happiness . . . "
But you wouldn't know or care about them, because you hate America.
Because an american wrote it down, those rights are universal? What if you don't believe in a creator? And this pursuit of happiness thing, is that really a universal right?
Joined: 15 Dec 2004 Posts: 9481 Location: Blue Canadian Rockies
Posted: Mon Feb 27, 2012 12:59 pm Post subject:
Baaahb wrote:
chemman wrote:
Just because you find killing someone for blasphemy wrong and barbaric does not make you right.
Do you likewise believe:
Just because you believe human slavery is wrong, that does not make it wrong.
Just because you believe violent rape is wrong, that does not make it wrong?
This is not about whether "I" am right. It is whether one can say that certain actions are morally wrong. If you can say that slavery or rape or murder is morally wrong, then why cannot one say that the retributive killing of another for burning a book is morally wrong?
I agree with you, Baaahb, I must be having an off day.
Our morality comes from our common humanity and the progress of civilization. Slavery was considered acceptable until recently in human history and many cultures believe the oppression of women is still justified. These things change with time, but sometimes I think we are going backwards.
Joined: 07 Dec 2004 Posts: 5819 Location: Flying over the Earth poisoning you with chemtrails
Posted: Mon Feb 27, 2012 1:58 pm Post subject:
I have been talking about what a society finds acceptable. We as Americans are not a part of a middle eastern islamic society and there for we do not know what is acceptable in its society. We can take standards that we feel are acceptable and apply them to their society but that does not mean it will be accepted, it will not. If we had not been in Afghanistan we would not have burned the books and there fore would not have suffered loss of life under their form of law. It is good and propper for them to carry out their laws. If they were here in the USA we would expect them to follow our laws and would punish them when they did not.
If you were a guest of their country and were out smoking ye ole ganga decided to take a chunk home, got busted by the popo, found guilty by a jury of your peers and had your head lopped off, are you (or more likely your family) going to be pissed because their laws are immoral acording to your standards?
skookumchuck wrote:
Baaahb wrote:
chemman wrote:
Just because you find killing someone for blasphemy wrong and barbaric does not make you right.
Do you likewise believe:
Just because you believe human slavery is wrong, that does not make it wrong.
Just because you believe violent rape is wrong, that does not make it wrong?
This is not about whether "I" am right. It is whether one can say that certain actions are morally wrong. If you can say that slavery or rape or murder is morally wrong, then why cannot one say that the retributive killing of another for burning a book is morally wrong?
I agree with you, Baaahb, I must be having an off day.
Our morality comes from our common humanity and the progress of civilization. Slavery was considered acceptable until recently in human history and many cultures believe the oppression of women is still justified. These things change with time, but sometimes I think we are going backwards.
_________________ Il n'y a que moi qui a toujours raison.
BF's French lady.
Joined: 07 Jan 2005 Posts: 15743 Location: Ponderosa
Posted: Mon Feb 27, 2012 2:10 pm Post subject:
chemman wrote:
So Baahb is it your idea that we should come up with some universal morality laws that should be forced on all world societies?
It's not just my idea, but thanks for the credit. I think you know that the search to define a universal morality has occupied much of human thought for much of human existence in the last 2,500 years. One can readily refer to "self-evident truths" but sheeit, man, there are examples everywhere..in politics, in philosophy, in religion.
The notion that society can define its own morality is advanced by very, very few people, but I agree it is a defensible notion...just a widely unpopular one. Indeed, I am sure that most Afghanis view their morality as transcending their society --indeed, as being God -given. They don't agree with you either. Their universal morality is dictated by the Koran.
So, what is in that universal morality? As already noted, one principle is freedom of thought, of belief. Which means that people are not punished for what they believe, or for having beliefs contrary to your own.
The definition of a universal morality actually raises fewer issues than its application. Most disputes arise in the application, for instance, when freedom of religion bumps up against freedom of religion.
You seem to have a hard time in applying that principle to a society (like Afghanistan) that is dominated by a single belief systems and hostile to other thought.
Do you similarly have a hard time criticizing Christian regimes that are intolerant of dissent? _________________ Other vegetables have a hard time competing with potatoes.
Joined: 07 Jan 2005 Posts: 15743 Location: Ponderosa
Posted: Mon Feb 27, 2012 2:21 pm Post subject:
skookumchuck wrote:
Because an american wrote it down, those rights are universal? What if you don't believe in a creator? And this pursuit of happiness thing, is that really a universal right?
Someone piss in your cereal today?
skookumchuck wrote:
Our morality comes from our common humanity and the progress of civilization. Slavery was considered acceptable until recently in human history and many cultures believe the oppression of women is still justified. These things change with time, but sometimes I think we are going backwards.
Sometimes we have gone backwards. The founding fathers (you know, the US founding fathers, not just some dog mushers) recognized the inconsistency in their grandiose words and the actions of some of them. There is some evidence that they anticipated a second step, an abolishment of slavery. But, instead, slavery actually strengthened itself as an institution and the oppression of blacks intensified following 1776.... because slavery had to defend itself in the face of the grandiose principles of the American revolution. _________________ Other vegetables have a hard time competing with potatoes.
Joined: 07 Dec 2004 Posts: 5819 Location: Flying over the Earth poisoning you with chemtrails
Posted: Mon Feb 27, 2012 2:25 pm Post subject:
I have the approach that people are a member of a society live under the rules imposed by that society and they either choose their rules or choose to live by the rules. If you are a guest of that society by choice you also have to live by the rules of that society. If you want something different go home. If you want to be a nation builder than use your might to impose on that society your will. But don't be suprised when the plan goes awry and you must let god sort them out, conversly don't be suprised when you find yourself standing in front of Saint Peter...
_________________ Il n'y a que moi qui a toujours raison.
BF's French lady.
Joined: 07 Jan 2005 Posts: 15743 Location: Ponderosa
Posted: Mon Feb 27, 2012 2:28 pm Post subject:
The notion of when universal moral principles should be imposed on other societies is a separate issue, and a tough one, with its own inconsistencies. Liberals who oppose things like the Iraq invasion still call on the US to get involved when African warlords practice genocide.
Anyway, the issue isn't whether the US should impose self-evident truths on Afghanistan, the issue whether there are grounds to criticize Afghanis who call for the murder of Americans who burn the Koran.
I think YES, CLEARLY SO. Murder is the most violent and oppressive act one can inflict on another human being, and burning a book is - AT MOST - a symbolic action. _________________ Other vegetables have a hard time competing with potatoes.
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