Joined: 06 Dec 2004 Posts: 7138 Location: Breckenridge CO
Posted: Mon Mar 14, 2011 12:51 pm Post subject:
stevesliva wrote:
JustinB wrote:
hutguy wrote:
My feeling with the Tea Baggers - like all frothing ideologues - was they would over play their hand. So far this seems a very distinct possibility.
Kinda' like liberal factions did in '06 & '08?
Well, healthcare reform was sort of a core plank. Not sure they "overplayed" in delivering (sorta) what they promised.
It's been justifiably pointed out that union busting was not a central tenet of the tea party. Organized anger and organized labor aren't not necessarily natural enemies.
Health care reform is certainly not overplaying a hand. IMO the Health care reform legislation that was passed was a half assed compromise, that while doing some good things, falls well short of what is needed to get health care costs and results in line with what the rest of the world spends and enjoys. _________________ Creeds and doctrines are like a raft to get you to the other shore and then to relinquish. Neither cling to the raft or reject it when drowning. Even better, become a strong swimmer.
Joined: 07 Dec 2004 Posts: 4975 Location: Hol(y)land, MI
Posted: Mon Mar 14, 2011 1:07 pm Post subject:
keithermadness wrote:
JustinB wrote:
- Those 2 wars would pay for themselves
FIFY
You lying sack of organic fertilizer. Putting words into anothers' mouth shows a lurid lack of integrity. Thank you kiether for once again affirming your credibility... or, more accurately... lack thereof.
I have posted the following regarding the Iraq war many times: "Invading Iraq for oil would be like buying an airliner for the ashtrays." _________________ Sh'ma Yis'ra'eil Adonai Eloheinu Adonai echad.
Joined: 06 Dec 2004 Posts: 7138 Location: Breckenridge CO
Posted: Mon Mar 14, 2011 1:09 pm Post subject:
JustinB wrote:
hutguy wrote:
My feeling with the Tea Baggers - like all frothing ideologues - was they would over play their hand. So far this seems a very distinct possibility.
Kinda' like liberal factions did in '06 & '08?
As I said, all frothing ideologues. That said, this country hasn't seen far left ideologues with any kind of power in a long, long, time. Twopass is a frothing left ideologue, the closest thing to him might be Dennis Kucinich who knows how little power to institute any of his core values he has. He just tries to hold the line as best he can.
You may think this country is turning into a totalitarian socialist state Justin, but we're not even remotely close to that and those who control capital are still firmly in charge and reap that great majority of the spoils of the system.
Unions, whether they represent public or private employees, simply work to to ensure that the wage earning class can at least get a large enough slice of the pie to enjoy a modest, at best lower middle class existence. Is that so bad or so unchristian?
Abuse certainly exists at all levels of the socio-economic ladder, but the core struggle struggle to have at least some semblance of balance the top of the ladder with the bottom at some sort of equilibrium that encourages an economically and socially healthy society is, IMO the greater issue. _________________ Creeds and doctrines are like a raft to get you to the other shore and then to relinquish. Neither cling to the raft or reject it when drowning. Even better, become a strong swimmer.
Joined: 07 Dec 2004 Posts: 4975 Location: Hol(y)land, MI
Posted: Mon Mar 14, 2011 1:09 pm Post subject:
Back on Topic:
Quote:
The issue over the unions in WI are related to government worker unions. This is a battle pitched between who is in control, the constituents or the government. I do believe that this is a government empowered by the people, the desire is to keep the situation from reversing.
I also have an issue with contracts that stipulate specific insurance carriers who (ahem) happen to be owned by the union. Benefits should be specified & then put out to competitive bid.
The MI branch of the NEA has an annual $300,000,000 profit from their healthcare plan that:
- Is a Blue Cross/Blue Shield run plan
....(BC/BS can deliver the same plan directly for the $300,000,000 less)
- Has no participant contribution
- Has no deduction
- Is a taxpayer funded lobby of $300,000,000 to influence the very individuals that authorized the funding.... No conflict of interest there eh?
Joined: 06 Dec 2004 Posts: 7138 Location: Breckenridge CO
Posted: Mon Mar 14, 2011 1:18 pm Post subject:
JustinB wrote:
Back on Topic:
Quote:
The issue over the unions in WI are related to government worker unions. This is a battle pitched between who is in control, the constituents or the government. I do believe that this is a government empowered by the people, the desire is to keep the situation from reversing.
I also have an issue with contracts that stipulate specific insurance carriers who (ahem) happen to be owned by the union. Benefits should be specified & then put out to competitive bid.
The MI branch of the NEA has an annual $300,000,000 profit from their healthcare plan that:
- Is a Blue Cross/Blue Shield run plan
....(BC/BS can deliver the same plan directly for the $300,000,000 less)
- Has no participant contribution
- Has no deduction
- Is a taxpayer funded lobby of $300,000,000 to influence the very individuals that authorized the funding.... No conflict of interest there eh?
You know, the right, when the topic of whether folks making over $250,000 are rich or not and would be unduly burdened by a somewhat higher tax rate go on and on about how $250,000 a year isn't rich and how these poor folks struggle to pay the bills, put the kids through collage, etc.
Give a teacher with a masters degree who usually continues their education on their own dime throughout their career an at best modest salary ($40-60,000) and a good, but not outrageous benefit package much of which is supported by payroll deductions (no golden parachute like many of the executive class) and they are horrible, greedy, parasites on the public tit.
It's no surprise that this country is falling behind the rest of the world in education. _________________ Creeds and doctrines are like a raft to get you to the other shore and then to relinquish. Neither cling to the raft or reject it when drowning. Even better, become a strong swimmer.
You lying sack of organic fertilizer. Putting words into anothers' mouth shows a lurid lack of integrity. Thank you kiether for once again affirming your credibility... or, more accurately... lack thereof.
I have posted the following regarding the Iraq war many times: "Invading Iraq for oil would be like buying an airliner for the ashtrays."
Just making sure our sound bytes are accuarate.
_________________ ~km
"Everyday is a potential avalanche day."
-Missiongravity
Joined: 07 Dec 2004 Posts: 4975 Location: Hol(y)land, MI
Posted: Mon Mar 14, 2011 3:40 pm Post subject:
hutguy wrote:
JustinB wrote:
Back on Topic:
Quote:
The issue over the unions in WI are related to government worker unions. This is a battle pitched between who is in control, the constituents or the government. I do believe that this is a government empowered by the people, the desire is to keep the situation from reversing.
I also have an issue with contracts that stipulate specific insurance carriers who (ahem) happen to be owned by the union. Benefits should be specified & then put out to competitive bid.
The MI branch of the NEA has an annual $300,000,000 profit from their healthcare plan that:
- Is a Blue Cross/Blue Shield run plan
....(BC/BS can deliver the same plan directly for the $300,000,000 less)
- Has no participant contribution
- Has no deduction
- Is a taxpayer funded lobby of $300,000,000 to influence the very individuals that authorized the funding.... No conflict of interest there eh?
You know, the right, when the topic of whether folks making over $250,000 are rich or not and would be unduly burdened by a somewhat higher tax rate go on and on about how $250,000 a year isn't rich and how these poor folks struggle to pay the bills, put the kids through collage, etc.
Give a teacher with a masters degree who usually continues their education on their own dime throughout their career an at best modest salary ($40-60,000) and a good, but not outrageous benefit package much of which is supported by payroll deductions (no golden parachute like many of the executive class) and they are horrible, greedy, parasites on the public tit.
It's no surprise that this country is falling behind the rest of the world in education.
The issue is hardly about the feet on the ground providing the direct services. The issue is about the multiple layers of management above them. Just how many organizations do you know of where management has a union? _________________ Sh'ma Yis'ra'eil Adonai Eloheinu Adonai echad.
Joined: 21 Sep 2007 Posts: 17780 Location: EL/R -6.12, SL/A -8.15 in NW VT and slightly south of the Poutine Curtain
Posted: Mon Mar 14, 2011 4:02 pm Post subject:
hutguy wrote:
JustinB wrote:
hutguy wrote:
My feeling with the Tea Baggers - like all frothing ideologues - was they would over play their hand. So far this seems a very distinct possibility.
Kinda' like liberal factions did in '06 & '08?
As I said, all frothing ideologues. That said, this country hasn't seen far left ideologues with any kind of power in a long, long, time. Twopass is a frothing left ideologue, the closest thing to him might be Dennis Kucinich who knows how little power to institute any of his core values he has. He just tries to hold the line as best he can.
You may think this country is turning into a totalitarian socialist state Justin, but we're not even remotely close to that and those who control capital are still firmly in charge and reap that great majority of the spoils of the system.
Unions, whether they represent public or private employees, simply work to to ensure that the wage earning class can at least get a large enough slice of the pie to enjoy a modest, at best lower middle class existence. Is that so bad or so unchristian?
Abuse certainly exists at all levels of the socio-economic ladder, but the core struggle struggle to have at least some semblance of balance the top of the ladder with the bottom at some sort of equilibrium that encourages an economically and socially healthy society is, IMO the greater issue.
Dennis! He rocks. He may even smoke rocks. But he still rocks! In the grand scheme of things on the Global Scale? He's barely left of center. _________________
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